Tower vs bookshelf speakers

[samysound]

We've started curating a small list of stereo integrated amps with proper subwoofer support: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/en/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers

The list isn't very big, but there are a few very high quality alternatives out there.
Happy to add to the list if anyone know of others as well.

Lyngdorf makes several stereo integrateds with bass management

 

[FrankF]

So in a stereo setup would a pair of Revel Salon 2s with Dirac live be a better choice than a pair of stand mounts with 2 12" subs and Dirac live? Since the Salon's go down to 20 hz or so they will better most subs and you won't have to wait for DLBC for stereo configurations. I'm using a miniDSP SHD.

 

[nn_in]

Thanks, added the two first ones. The Denon appears to basically have a pre-out, a bit unclear if it has a crossover. There are many amplifiers out there with a pre-out, which will enable you to connect a subwoofer. But the list intended for amplifiers with active support for subwoofers, so active crossover for both subwoofers and speakers.

Its a sub out but not adjustable. It does not have a pre-out. I have all the the 3 amps listed.

 

[Emlin]

One of the advantages of towers is that you are not spending loads on ironmongery for stands and usually getting more drivers instead.

And, including the stands, they don't actually take up any more space.

 

[CDMC]

So in a stereo setup would a pair of Revel Salon 2s with Dirac live be a better choice than a pair of stand mounts with 2 12" subs and Dirac live? Since the Salon's go down to 20 hz or so they will better most subs and you won't have to wait for DLBC for stereo configurations. I'm using a miniDSP SHD.

Yes. The Salons get you a better transition, lower distortion, better directivity transitions from the dedicated midrange. A lot will depend on listening levels. At moderate levels with a bookshelf that has strong bass to 50hz, the differences will be small. I can tell you if I really crank my F208s up loud (105db peaks) with music that has a good amount of midbass, the woofers still move a lot even though they are high passed with a 24db crossover at 70hz.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Using a pair of Monitor Audio Silver S6 floorstanders right now, and they honestly don't do anything for me, and thinking about replacing them.

This conversation has got me thinking about stand-mount or bookshelf speakers again.

If the goal is to achieve accurate reproduction and compelling sound stage and imaging, are bookshelf/stand-mount speakers preferable? Are there design advantages there? If nothing else, it seems to me that if you don't care about bass weight or high SPL the smaller speakers might be easier to triangulate for the sweet spot in a small room.

I heard a pair of Totem Rainmakers and the imaging on them was out of this world-- I remember specifically listening to a car doppler effect on The Wall that was recorded with one of those dummy head mics, and I have never heard anything like it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or model recommendations for things I might check out? Is this aspect measurable?

 

[Emlin]

Using a pair of Monitor Audio Silver S6 floorstanders right now, and they honestly don't do anything for me, and thinking about replacing them.

This conversation has got me thinking about stand-mount or bookshelf speakers again.

If the goal is to achieve accurate reproduction and compelling sound stage and imaging, are bookshelf/stand-mount speakers preferable? Are there design advantages there? If nothing else, it seems to me that if you don't care about bass weight or high SPL the smaller speakers might be easier to triangulate for the sweet spot in a small room.

I heard a pair of Totem Rainmakers and the imaging on them was out of this world-- I remember specifically listening to a car doppler effect on The Wall that was recorded with one of those dummy head mics, and I have never heard anything like it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or model recommendations for things I might check out? Is this aspect measurable?

I think it may depend on how much of your life you are willing to devote to listening to car Doppler effects.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Lyngdorf makes several stereo integrateds with bass management

I knew that, I don't know why I didn't think of them when I initially wrote the article. Thank you, added it now. Seems there are actually a few options out there after all.

 

[sigbergaudio]

So in a stereo setup would a pair of Revel Salon 2s with Dirac live be a better choice than a pair of stand mounts with 2 12" subs and Dirac live? Since the Salon's go down to 20 hz or so they will better most subs and you won't have to wait for DLBC for stereo configurations. I'm using a miniDSP SHD.

So, since we build subs I can hardly be seen as an objective source on this matter, but there are VERY few speakers out there that rival a good sub. Revel Salon 2 is a pretty extreme (and expensive) speaker, and even those won't have much meaningful output at 20hz. You're mentioning 2x12" subs - in the price range you're talking about, two 12" subs would destroy the Salon 2s in the 20-100hz area.

We currently have a potential customer with the JBL Everest DD66000 who are adding double subwoofers..

So it's not like floorstanders are "wasted" if you add a sub. If you want high SPL capability in the bass area you can easily do large floorstanders AND a sub. Highpassing the loudspeakers you will get a lot cleaner and higher SPL from them, when they don't have to struggle to reproduce lowest frequency content. Obviously you also get lots more amplifier power and headroom when you get dedicated active subwoofers for the low-end, while your main amplifier(s) can concentrate on the rest of the spectrum.

 

[simple6]

What about listening distance? Isn’t it one of the main determinants of tower vs bookcase? I have 2 x 12” subs and still doubting whether my bookcase speakers (Dali Zensor 3) would be good enough for a distance longer than 2.5 meters. Supposedly at 3m the speakers would need to play louder, therefore hitting their SPL limits earlier and bringing out unwanted distortions that could be avoided with the use of towers? Or would my two subs still protect me by providing enough sound power below 80hz, where distortion in bookcase speakers is common at high SPL?

 

[tuga]

Is there a difference in terms of image and soundstage size...towers vs bookshelf speakers?

All things but height being equal?
Pehaps the baffle extending all the way down will affect vertical dispersion and thus slightly reducing perceived "spaciousness".

Probably very little to none audible difference I'd say. Your perception may be more affected by visual cues because a floorstander will produce a visual interruption of the floor when seen from the listening spot which may make the room look smaller and the speakers closer.

 

[tuga]

there are VERY few speakers out there that rival a good sub. Revel Salon 2 is a pretty extreme (and expensive) speaker

I would add that the Salon2 is a 4-way speaker which has a dedicated low- and sub-bass section crossed at 150Hz.

Such speakers are rare but you really need 4-ways to produce full-range with quality.

 

[tuga]

So it's not like floorstanders are "wasted" if you add a sub. If you want high SPL capability in the bass area you can easily do large floorstanders AND a sub. Highpassing the loudspeakers you will get a lot cleaner and higher SPL from them, when they don't have to struggle to reproduce lowest frequency content. Obviously you also get lots more amplifier power and headroom when you get dedicated active subwoofers for the low-end, while your main amplifier(s) can concentrate on the rest of the spectrum.

My reference speaker, the B&W F801, and one of the best I've listened to, the TAD Reference 1, (both large 3-ways) would in my view still benefit from the addition of a pair of subs or a "swam"™.
Not a single 10-incher obviously.

 

[valerianf]

I remember an audio show in France à long time ago.
A speaker manufacturer made some custom towers for the show: 3m high and 1m large.
The sound was amazing: to be able to produce some SPL without too much distorsion, the bass and midrange drivers need a generous cabinet volume.
Right choice is tower speaker nowadays.

 

[ex audiophile]

So in a stereo setup would a pair of Revel Salon 2s with Dirac live be a better choice than a pair of stand mounts with 2 12" subs and Dirac live? Since the Salon's go down to 20 hz or so they will better most subs and you won't have to wait for DLBC for stereo configurations. I'm using a miniDSP SHD.

I have a pair of Revel 126be bookshelf speakers combined with two 12 inch Fathom v2s in my exercise procrastination room, and a pair of 228be towers combined with 13 inch Fathoms in the surround room. Both systems sound excellent but they are very different; the bookshelf system is "lean" and clear in contrast to the full bodied immersive experience with the larger speakers. I prefer the latter; i've always found that a pair of subs properly integrated improves any speaker.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Another for the amplifier list: MiniDSP SHD Power (or the MiniDSP SHD if you have active speakers or a power amp).

 

[CDMC]

I have a pair of Revel 126be bookshelf speakers combined with two 12 inch Fathom v2s in my exercise procrastination room, and a pair of 228be towers combined with 13 inch Fathoms in the surround room. Both systems sound excellent but they are very different; the bookshelf system is "lean" and clear in contrast to the full bodied immersive experience with the larger speakers. I prefer the latter; i've always found that a pair of subs properly integrated improves any speaker.

There is no substitute for driver displacement at higher volume levels. 3x the bass radiating area give a lot better ability to reproduce midbass transients with minimal compression and low distortion.

 

[Shazb0t]

If cost, and in some cases space, are not issues then I generally recommend that you go with the tower speaker in the same series. You'll usually get higher sensitivity, higher dynamic range, and lower distortion. Depending on the driver compliment differences you could likely end up with better directivity also. All the pros that come with crossing bookshelves with subs apply equally to tower speakers.

 

[dougi]

This is an interesting topic. I have a large room (8 x 12m minimum plus open to another area) and have always run bookshelf plus a sub with good results. I don't listen too loud though. I do use a Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp which allows a 2 way crossover to HP the speakers, as well as good room correction. Normally Proac Response D2 but at the moment I am experimenting with an active conversion of my old Proac Tablette iiis. I blew up the woofers in them with a bad DC thump from a DAP so have converted them to active with whatever woofers would fit (and suit conversion of cab to sealed). Great results as better off axis due to smaller woofer (4" vs 6.5"). Only issue is rolloff above 10 KHz in room due to the room with the venerable scan-speak d2020-8300 tweeters. Running with minidsp nano digi for xover and speaker EQ and topping E30s for DAC. Never sounded better really. Note that my sub (Velodyne DD10+) does have a low level and high level HP output. However these seem passive and designed for a different input impedance that my amp/s. Rolled off bass at around 150 Hz rather than 80 so probably designed for 47 kohm rather than my amps 22kohm balanced. Hence the shift to the nanodigi.

 

[o2so]

This is exactly the thread I was looking for.
So this is what I can gather from the previous comments:
Assuming that a system with two bookshelves and two subs can be seamlessly integrated (I use MiniDSP SHD for this which is perfect), the differences in sound quality with respect to using large-ish towers are:

- lower distortion in the upper bass by using floorstanders. This is clearly shown in any THD chart. Even if one sets an high pass filter on the bookshelves at say 80 Hz (so pretty high), most bookshelves still have significantly higher distortion than floor standers up to 400-500 Hz. Is this correct? Any comments about the extent to which this is audible? I understand that distortion in the lower frequencies is not much of an audible issue

- floorstanders can play louder with lower compression/distortion. Disregard if you are in a small room and/or you do not play loud

- floorstanders with an array of subs will be a bit better in terms of managing bass nulls due to floor reflections. However subs will do better in managing the same issue but caused by side wall reflections because they can be moved around. Ideally one would have large floorstanders and two subs. And a Lamborghini parked in the driveway.

- floorstanders may have a mid frequency driver which means the tweeter comes in at higher frequencies (say 2.5 KHz) leaving crossover zones outside-ish of the human voice frequency range. Is this a thing?