Tower vs bookshelf speakers

[valerianf]

O2so is asking the right questions and making the correct statement.
I have another way solving the main question mark.
What would make a owner of large tower speakers switching to bookshelf speakers+sub?

Only if moving to a very small place where the tower speakers do not fit!

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

One of the advantages of towers is that you are not spending loads on ironmongery for stands and usually getting more drivers instead.

And, including the stands, they don't actually take up any more space.

The only extra space my floorstanders

This is exactly the thread I was looking for.
So this is what I can gather from the previous comments:
Assuming that a system with two bookshelves and two subs can be seamlessly integrated (I use MiniDSP SHD for this which is perfect), the differences in sound quality with respect to using large-ish towers are:

- lower distortion in the upper bass by using floorstanders. This is clearly shown in any THD chart. Even if one sets an high pass filter on the bookshelves at say 80 Hz (so pretty high), most bookshelves still have significantly higher distortion than floor standers up to 400-500 Hz. Is this correct? Any comments about the extent to which this is audible? I understand that distortion in the lower frequencies is not much of an audible issue

- floorstanders can play louder with lower compression/distortion. Disregard if you are in a small room and/or you do not play loud

- floorstanders with an array of subs will be a bit better in terms of managing bass nulls due to floor reflections. However subs will do better in managing the same issue but caused by side wall reflections because they can be moved around. Ideally one would have large floorstanders and two subs. And a Lamborghini parked in the driveway.

- floorstanders may have a mid frequency driver which means the tweeter comes in at higher frequencies (say 2.5 KHz) leaving crossover zones outside-ish of the human voice frequency range. Is this a thing?

My experience is that three ways reproduce voices accurately. Especially the center speaker. I purchased my first 3 way center 6 months ago. Solved voice problem. No matter what movie soundtrack I can now hear voices. I don't need to crank up volume to hear dialogue. I don't need night mode. I don't need to increase db on center after room correction. I even resorted to close captioning before 3 way center.

 

[bigredrobotninja]

We've started curating a small list of stereo integrated amps with proper subwoofer support: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/en/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers

The list isn't very big, but there are a few very high quality alternatives out there.
Happy to add to the list if anyone know of others as well.

You can add the NAD D3045. It has a selectable high pass filter that you can set to 40Hz, 80Hz, or 120Hz.

 

[valerianf]

"Especially the center speaker."
I agree that a 3 ways speaker for the Center channel is a must.
Voices are more intelligible, small sound effects too.

 

[Kachda]

We've started curating a small list of stereo integrated amps with proper subwoofer support: https://www.sigbergaudio.no/en/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers

The list isn't very big, but there are a few very high quality alternatives out there.
Happy to add to the list if anyone know of others as well.

You can add the outlaw rr2160 to the list

 

[sigbergaudio]

This is exactly the thread I was looking for.
So this is what I can gather from the previous comments:
Assuming that a system with two bookshelves and two subs can be seamlessly integrated (I use MiniDSP SHD for this which is perfect), the differences in sound quality with respect to using large-ish towers are:

- lower distortion in the upper bass by using floorstanders. This is clearly shown in any THD chart. Even if one sets an high pass filter on the bookshelves at say 80 Hz (so pretty high), most bookshelves still have significantly higher distortion than floor standers up to 400-500 Hz. Is this correct? Any comments about the extent to which this is audible? I understand that distortion in the lower frequencies is not much of an audible issue

Up to 400-500hz is probably pushing it. When you go above 150-200hz you need very little excursion to play very loud. So if you are able to cross a bit higher than 80hz, say maybe 120hz, I think you would need to be playing PRETTY loud before you "need" floorstanders.

 

[MDAguy]

I am considering replacing my bookshelf (PMC DB1) speakers with tower speakers. I have the room for towers and my room size is ample, but with so much discussion about bookshelf speakers here and products like Buchardt, I'm really wondering exactly what the upside of tower speakers are. I do not play music loud and have a sub. Is tower vs bookshelf still a quality of sound issue? Are people now tending to go with bookshelves for almost all situations that do not involve loud music?

I have a relatively small listening room, 12x14' and it's also doubling as as spare bedroom, so not an ideal listening room, but I looked long and heard for the right size / type of speaker before I came across the XR50's from McIntosh .. they're a 3-way with very low sensitivity and punch out a serious amount of bass.... you need at least 60w to power them though...

You can hear them via YouTube in the videos I posted in my signature block... I strongly recommend these.

 

[o2so]

Up to 400-500hz is probably pushing it. When you go above 150-200hz you need very little excursion to play very loud. So if you are able to cross a bit higher than 80hz, say maybe 120hz, I think you would need to be playing PRETTY loud before you "need" floorstanders.

I was able to organise a week-long home audition with the Dynaudio Focus 60 xd, a three-way active floorstander. I put them side to side with the LS50s, which I run with two SVS SB2000 Pro subs, now crossed over at 100 Hz via Minidsp and Dirac. The FR was adjusted with Dirac for both systems and it is extremely similar at the listening position, although the Dyns are touch less flat in the highs (probably due to floor/ceiling reflections being suboptimal without a coax driver) and the lows (have some nulls which I do not have when using two subs).
However, the Dynaudios definitely seem to be a bit more dynamic and tight in the bass, at the same volume. Even at low volumes. Waterfall measurements confirm the greater tightness but I don't have a quick enough way to compare the dynamics/transients. For what is worth, using a basic Db meter and playing exactly the same sample at matched volumes I seem to get higher peaks on the Dynaudios which would confirm my impressions.
Thoughts?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Your 3 way paired with the subs would swallow the little boy at the pandemic McDonald's drive thru for breakfast or lunch.

 

[richard12511]

Love the finish on those Dyns. Pretty!

 

[o2so]

Love the finish on those Dyns. Pretty!

What do you think about the perceived differences in dynamics? Is this a well understood thing, that larger multi driver speakers have greater dynamics of bookshelves + subs, all other things (volume, FR) equal? Or am I imagining it? It could just be due to the location of the subs in my room.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I am considering replacing my bookshelf (PMC DB1) speakers with tower speakers. I have the room for towers and my room size is ample, but with so much discussion about bookshelf speakers here and products like Buchardt, I'm really wondering exactly what the upside of tower speakers are. I do not play music loud and have a sub. Is tower vs bookshelf still a quality of sound issue? Are people now tending to go with bookshelves for almost all situations that do not involve loud music?

Howdy, I do listen often at medium loud/loud (not headbanger but deff attention getting. 82-88db with peaks at 95-100db, speakers 8 feet apart 10 feet from me)
I mainly use bookshelves and at least two subs.
My room is a "medium" size.
I like to switch speakers often and monitors are just easier.
I nearly always high pass my monitors and they can cope very well with my volumes such that if you are not going loud no you have nearly zero need for floor standers. That said unless you plan to switch speakers often like me why not just go floor? The space they take up is similar and the ease with which they play, the increased dynamics and increased sensitivity are all worth it for those louder times. (even if the gain over excellent monitors are sometimes minor, they are gains)

Some folks here have mentioned integrated amps with sub-outs. IMHO Forget about that. Buy a budget miniDSP Hd for $200 and a decent budget 2 channel amp for the monitors/floorstanders and mate the whole thing with two active subs. The PEQ and active crossovers will easily outduel any subtle gains in SQ that expensive integrated amps have over a budget 2 channel that it simply makes zero sense. Complete waste. Nothing will help you integrate your subs better than highly adjustable and configurable electronic crossovers and whether you have floor-standers or monitors you must have PEQ or room correction software. Additionally some more of the best gains I have experienced with monitors and subs are due to high passing the monitors - even at medium volumes the clarity gains are quite nice when those little woofers don't have to bump near and beyond xmax and simultaneously play pretty voices. (at low volumes this might not matter & with some really robust gear)

by the way if money is not an issue and looks are important this seems decent.
Has Dirac built in and plenty of power and other great features,

https://news.harman.com/releases/releases-20210105

 

[Matias]

@sigbergaudio also Buchardt I-250 has proper subwoofer support.

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/i150-integrated-amplifier-buchardt-family

 

[sigbergaudio]

@sigbergaudio also Buchardt I-250 has proper subwoofer support.

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/i150-integrated-amplifier-buchardt-family

Nice, added it to the list!

 

[Frank Dernie]

What do you think about the perceived differences in dynamics? Is this a well understood thing, that larger multi driver speakers have greater dynamics of bookshelves + subs, all other things (volume, FR) equal? Or am I imagining it? It could just be due to the location of the subs in my room.

It depends how near to the SPL limit of the speakers and the amps driving them you listen.
I would say my experience is more dynamics come from speakers which can go louder simply for that reason.
Sometimes the speakers are very efficient and don't tax the amp much. Perhaps with less efficient speakers with lowwr power handling then maybe the amp clips the peaks or compression in the speakers does - or both.
Many years ago I rejected a speaker on audition that was receiving rave reviews here because on demo it was not "dynamic" at all. It was very clear and uncoloured on speech and string quartet but with orchestral or rock music it couldn't follow the dynamics.
It was both less efficient than I was used to and had a relatively low power handling capability, so it could be either but whichever it wasn't enjoyable on the sort of music I like best.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I was able to organise a week-long home audition with the Dynaudio Focus 60 xd, a three-way active floorstander. I put them side to side with the LS50s, which I run with two SVS SB2000 Pro subs, now crossed over at 100 Hz via Minidsp and Dirac. The FR was adjusted with Dirac for both systems and it is extremely similar at the listening position, although the Dyns are touch less flat in the highs (probably due to floor/ceiling reflections being suboptimal without a coax driver) and the lows (have some nulls which I do not have when using two subs).
However, the Dynaudios definitely seem to be a bit more dynamic and tight in the bass, at the same volume. Even at low volumes. Waterfall measurements confirm the greater tightness but I don't have a quick enough way to compare the dynamics/transients. For what is worth, using a basic Db meter and playing exactly the same sample at matched volumes I seem to get higher peaks on the Dynaudios which would confirm my impressions.
Thoughts?

First of all, in a non-blind test like this it would be hard not to get the impression that the large floor stander sounds better than the LS50 just based on your visual impression. They're also very different speakers, so not a big surprise that they sound somewhat different even with Dirac. If you have the subwoofers placed in the front you could try to cross them even higher to see if the difference is reduced, 120 or even 150hz.

It's also hard to compete for the single woofer in the LS-50 compared to that large 3-way. So depending on the listening volume, you might need a bookshelf that have dual drivers. We're currently working on one in fact, with the design goal of making a small speaker than can play loud with excellent transient response in combination with subwoofers. So hopefully we can prove something relevant to this thread.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Cannot fool physics.

 

[ROOSKIE]

First of all, in a non-blind test like this it would be hard not to get the impression that the large floor stander sounds better than the LS50 just based on your visual impression. They're also very different speakers, so not a big surprise that they sound somewhat different even with Dirac. If you have the subwoofers placed in the front you could try to cross them even higher to see if the difference is reduced, 120 or even 150hz.

It's also hard to compete for the single woofer in the LS-50 compared to that large 3-way. So depending on the listening volume, you might need a bookshelf that have dual drivers. We're currently working on one in fact, with the design goal of making a small speaker than can play loud with excellent transient response in combination with subwoofers. So hopefully we can prove something relevant to this thread.

I was able to organise a week-long home audition with the Dynaudio Focus 60 xd, a three-way active floorstander. I put them side to side with the LS50s, which I run with two SVS SB2000 Pro subs, now crossed over at 100 Hz via Minidsp and Dirac. The FR was adjusted with Dirac for both systems and it is extremely similar at the listening position, although the Dyns are touch less flat in the highs (probably due to floor/ceiling reflections being suboptimal without a coax driver) and the lows (have some nulls which I do not have when using two subs).
However, the Dynaudios definitely seem to be a bit more dynamic and tight in the bass, at the same volume. Even at low volumes. Waterfall measurements confirm the greater tightness but I don't have a quick enough way to compare the dynamics/transients. For what is worth, using a basic Db meter and playing exactly the same sample at matched volumes I seem to get higher peaks on the Dynaudios which would confirm my impressions.
Thoughts?

A memeber of this forum made a superb & very detailed article about this that simply could not be more relevant here. He even uses the LS50(the og version)
These are compared with enormous and very well respected JBL pro speakers.
"David vs Goliath"
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ker-comparison-with-binaural-recordings-r768/

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

i tihnk the real question is
bookshelf+subs or floorstanders!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Cannot fool physics.

Right, that's why we need a sub to take care of physics.