Topping EX5 Failure

[syzygetic]

Oh, and update: yeah, Topping got more money from me, and I replaced the EX5 with a D10 Balanced. It works great, was dirt cheap, and I guess I’ll pitch it in three years.

 

[Stevedread]

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I recently had a disappointing encounter with a Topping product, specifically the D10B. As I was enjoying my music, it suddenly fell silent. After ruling out other potential issues with my setup (source, pre-amp, power amp, and speakers), it became evident that the D10B was the culprit. Upon rebooting, I heard some clicky sounds, but no music played.

This isn’t my first run-in with Topping products. When I initially purchased the D10B, it failed within a year. Regrettably, I paid around $100.00 to ship it back for repairs. Now, a little over a year later, it’s dead again—this time in the middle of listening to music.

What frustrates me most is that it is a serious design flaw related to the balanced output that Topping knows about but choose not to fix. And Topping initially failed to communicate this limitation clearly because when I bought it either there was nothing about this limitation on their website or it was carefully obscured because if I had seen that statement I never would have bought it.

Balanced audio circuits have been around for decades and are widely used in professional settings in part due to their robustness. So how did Topping manage to get the design of the balanced output so wrong? It’s baffling that improper plugging can damage the unit or it can break by simply playing music.

For reference, I have it connected the D10B’s balanced output to the balanced input of my Anthem STR preamplifier (https://anthemav.com/products-current/series=str-series/model=str-pre-amplifier/page=overview).

In hindsight, I admit my initial decision was less than wise. However, this experience has taught me a valuable lesson, and the D10B is now destined for the garbage bin.

 

[Silver1omo]

My EX5 just died after a power fluctuation during a storm.
And just like the OP I opened it, PS gives proper voltage, nothing looks burned.

 

[AustreV]

Totally agree with you, but I guess it is similar case with most of single board type smaller cramped devices.
Although it shouldn’t have much to do with size as such but this race of bringing smallest size possible compromises some critical aspects like ease of troubleshooting and fixing issues.

One of the problems on small devices such as amps for example is capacitor volume. It will degrade over time. Not sure if manafactuers even interested (financially) to put big ones for additional price cost, so the device will last longer without replace. They will gain more if device would not last longer after warranty ends, so sadly several issues can be found im long term usage.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

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What frustrates me most is that it is a serious design flaw related to the balanced output that Topping knows about but choose not to fix. And Topping initially failed to communicate this limitation clearly because when I bought it either there was nothing about this limitation on their website or it was carefully obscured because if I had seen that statement I never would have bought it.

As written, I believe this is defamation against @TOPPING. You have made a fact-based claim that their design for the D10 Balanced DAC (D10B) is defective — rather than being a reasonable and (now) documented design choice — without stating a factual basis for that assertion.

Update (13-Aug-2024): The poster did not say what the source of failure was. But, based on context, it is very likely that the issue is connecting the balanced output on the D10B to an unbalanced input on another device. Two observations on this:

1. If TOPPING did not provide a warning that Balanced (BAL) to Unbalanced (SE) is not supported — which may have been the case for their original TOPPING product information sheets — then that issue of not documenting it very reasonable falls on TOPPING. And I believe TOPPING did replace the posters failed unit, and has since been extremely clear that a D10B should never be connected to an unbalanced input.
2. All literature on Balanced to Unbalanced audio interconnects has been universally clear to consult the documentation on the output device. Unlike SE to BAL which universally works, that is not always the case for BAL to SE. And unless the user explicitly knows that the BAL output device can be connected to an SE input, then it should not be done. And if it is done anyway, any resulting issues are entirely with the user.

 

[restorer-john]

As written, I believe this is defamation against @TOPPING. You have made a fact-based claim that their design for the D10 Balanced DAC (D10B) is defective — rather than being a reasonable and (now) documented design choice — without stating a factual basis for that assertion.

 

[Stevedread]

As written, I believe this is defamation against @TOPPING. You have made a fact-based claim that their design for the D10 Balanced DAC (D10B) is defective — rather than being a reasonable and (now) documented design choice — without stating a factual basis for that assertion.

I appreciate your perspective, but I believe 'defamation' might be too strong a term for what I'm expressing. There are two main issues I have as follows:

First, In my years of experience, I've never encountered a situation where equipment suffered permanent damage in circumstances similar to those reported with the Topping D10B. This is particularly surprising given that manufacturers of integrated circuits often provide detailed application notes, including schematics and layout guidelines.

Second, I find the current warning on Topping's website concerning. It states, "D10 Balanced does not support any adapter to convert to single-ended." While technically accurate, I believe this understates the potential consequences. A more appropriate warning might be, "CAUTION: Using any adapters may cause permanent damage to this device."

My personal experience with the D10B has been frustrating. After incurring additional costs for repair and shipping, the unit failed again shortly after being returned, despite being "correctly" connected to a balanced input on my preamp. As a result, I've reverted to using my decade-old Dacmagic while I consider alternatives.

 

[ban25]

My guess would be thermal cycling leading to fractures in the solder or separation of the BGA mount for one of the major ICs. If you still have the old one, you could try reflowing the solder using a heatgun on the PCB (low heat for a minute or so).

 

[rcstevensonaz]

I appreciate your perspective, but I believe 'defamation' might be too strong a term for what I'm expressing.

The issue is your original post did not provide any context. It simply trashed the product and company.

First, In my years of experience, I've never encountered a situation where equipment suffered permanent damage in circumstances similar to those reported with the Topping D10B. This is particularly surprising given that manufacturers of integrated circuits often provide detailed application notes, including schematics and layout guidelines.

Which situation (connecting BAL to SE)? If so, didn't TOPPING address that issue?

Second, I find the current warning on Topping's website concerning. It states, "D10 Balanced does not support any adapter to convert to single-ended." While technically accurate, I believe this understates the potential consequences. A more appropriate warning might be, "CAUTION: Using any adapters may cause permanent damage to this device."

This seems to be reasonable customer feedback suggesting their statement should be stronger than "don't do it". Did you send this suggestion to @TOPPING?

 

[Stevedread]

The issue is your original post did not provide any context. It simply trashed the product and company.

Sorry if my original post was not clear. The bottom line is that I spent a lot of money both in the initial purchase as well as sending it back for repair just to have it break each time. Shame on Topping for not being honest and admitting that you can damage the device if you use adapters.

Which situation (connecting BAL to SE)? If so, didn't TOPPING address that issue?

No, them saying "D10 Balanced does not support any adapter to convert to single-ended" is not addressing the issue, rather it is hiding the issue as it is totally different from the truth which is you can damage the D10B.

This seems to be reasonable customer feedback suggesting their statement should be stronger than "don't do it". Did you send this suggestion to @TOPPING?

Yes, in fact I had many emails with them when I originally posted and I wonder if their "fix" was to stop hiding it in small text and make it bigger as it is presently.

 

[zonk]

Sorry if my original post was not clear. The bottom line is that I spent a lot of money both in the initial purchase as well as sending it back for repair just to have it break each time. Shame on Topping for not being honest and admitting that you can damage the device if you use adapters.


No, them saying "D10 Balanced does not support any adapter to convert to single-ended" is not addressing the issue, rather it is hiding the issue as it is totally different from the truth which is you can damage the D10B.


Yes, in fact I had many emails with them when I originally posted and I wonder if their "fix" was to stop hiding it in small text and make it bigger as it is presently.

Here is a link to the D10 Balanced product page.
https://www.toppingaudio.com/product-item/d10-balanced

This website says one thing very clearly

The manual says in the product specification: no single ended output

This information is available at least since July 2021

 

[Stevedread]

Here is a link to the D10 Balanced product page.
https://www.toppingaudio.com/product-item/d10-balanced

This website says one thing very clearly
View attachment 386500

The manual says in the product specification: no single ended output

View attachment 386501
This information is available at least since July 2021

Maybe I need to try a different approach.

When I initially purchased the D10B, I thoroughly researched the product on Topping's website. Either the crucial information was absent or it was hidden in fine print, as I would never have bought it otherwise. Then perhaps a year later after experiencing issues I went back to the website where I did notice the disclaimer in small text. And now, what is really interestingly, is that Topping has made this information much more prominent with a large, red font. Maybe Topping was getting too many customer complaints?

For me, I say shame on Topping for doing this to me. This was not an insignificant amount of money for me. However, I understand that others may feel differently.

So, I guess my posting is not for everyone. But for those who are interested, I have two comments:

1) Please realise this is not a true balanced output. At best it is a very poorly designed balanced output. In other words, if Topping were honest, instead of "does not support" it should say "may cause permanent damaged". Because a real balance output does not have this fatal flaw.

And this is important because if you are an Audiophile like me where you like to switch up your setup over time than this Topping D10B is definitely not for you.

2) Even when you do use it correctly it may not last very long.

This is based on the brand new D10B which Topping sent me. I connected it to my balanced preamp and after about 6 to 8 weeks of listening it went silent, while I was enjoying it! In other words, even a brand new Topping D10B used exactly as described still failed in a short time. To me this is unacceptable.

So, for those who choose to consider my comments and are not willing to risk the expense and in conveniences then you may want to consider a non Topping product.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Maybe I need to try a different approach.

When I initially purchased the D10B, I thoroughly researched the product on Topping's website. Either the crucial information was absent or it was hidden in fine print, as I would never have bought it otherwise. Then perhaps a year later after experiencing issues I went back to the website where I did notice the disclaimer in small text. Interestingly, I now see that Topping has made this information much more prominent with a large, red font. Maybe Topping decided to change it because of customer complaints?

For me, I say shame on Topping for doing this to me. However, I understand that others may feel differently.

So, I guess my posting is not for everyone. But for those who are interested, I have two comments:

1) Please realise this is not a true balanced output. At best it is a very poorly designed balanced output. In other words, instead of "does not support" it should really say "may cause permanent damaged". Because a real balance output does not have this fatal flaw.

And this is important because if you are an Audiophile like me where you like to switch up your setup over time than this Topping D10B is not for you.

2) Then when I returned my faulty D10B I had many emails with Topping and they told me that instead of repairing it they would send me a brand new D10B. After receiving this brand new unit I plugged it in to my balanced preamp input and about 6 to 8 weeks of listening it went silent (while I was listening to it). In other words, even a brand new Topping D10B used exactly as described still failed in a short time. To me this is unacceptable.

And for the comments I have read where manufacturing circuit boards can fail that is not an excuse. And I can back this up with my experience as a retired technologist who has worked at a number of high tech manufacturing facilities.

Or those who have said that boards do not like thermal cycling, there is very little heat produced in this product as all of its power is coming from a limited USB power source.

So, for those who choose to consider my comments and are not willing to go through this expense and hassle then you may want to consider a non Topping product.

This is the first post you have actually shared details about the TOPPING device failure. Until now, we have been assuming what you did based on your oblique statements.

And to be honest, this post does NOT square well with your earlier comments. If you only plugged the replacement device into a BALANCED input, why are you so focused on the issue of BAL -> SE adapter, when based on what your wrote for #2 above, that was completely irrelevant?

Also, why do you say this is not a true balanced device? The definition of a balanced output is that the impedance of the hot and cold lines are the same (i.e., that the impedances are balanced); with some additional details around standardizing "Pin 1" behavior for XLR / TRS connectors.

And unless the device manufacture explicitly states that the device supports connecting to an unbalanced input port, then that device should never be connected to anything other than an balanced input. That is completely consistent with the definitions for balanced audio. Any cases where a device supports BAL -> SE is a feature of that device, but that is not a requirement or an expectation that should be assumed.

 

[zonk]

When I initially purchased the D10B, I thoroughly researched the product on Topping's website. Either the crucial information was absent or it was hidden in fine print, as I would never have bought it otherwise. Then perhaps a year later after experiencing issues I went back to the website where I did notice the disclaimer in small text. Interestingly, I now see that Topping has made this information much more prominent with a large, red font. Maybe Topping decided to change it because of customer complaints?

No, because same screenshot have been posted in the Topping D10B review thread in 2021. I am sorry

And there is another thing I don't understand. If I have a problem with a device that I have bought recently, I contact first the seller and ask for a solution.

 

[NTK]

Why would a person buy a DAC with balanced output and connect it to something that accepts single ended input, and automatically assume it is OK? Balanced outputs go with balanced inputs. Single end outputs go with single ended inputs. That is a reason they are different (and have different connectors). If you do otherwise, know what you are doing (and if not, ask the manufacturer). You are responsible for the consequences.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Why would a person buy a DAC with balanced output and connect it to something that accepts single ended input, and automatically assume it is OK? Balanced outputs go with balanced inputs. Single end outputs go with single ended inputs. That is a reason they are different (and have different connectors). If you do otherwise, know what you are doing (and if not, ask the manufacturer). You are responsible for the consequences.

[Edit: I read the opening sentence of @NTK's post and reacted to the first part without noticing the last part. Which is to say, my comment below is pretty much exactly what @NTK said. Doh!]

There are many reasons why this might be done, such as being part of a long term evolution to the end-to-end audio chain, because of the functionality a particular device offers, etc..

In my case, I purchased an Ashly LX-308B stereo mixer well before my preamp was upgraded to an RME ADI-2 Pro. But, the manufacture of the stereo mixer specifically designed the balanced outputs (main out, aux-send) to support connection to both BAL and SE devices. I later upgraded my speakers to active KH-120A while still using my prior unbalanced preamp. But again the speakers had specific language in the product manual on how to properly connect from an SE device to it's BAL XLR inputs.

The issue not with mixing between BAL & SE devices when that is supported by the design of the balanced equipment. But rather, mixing BAL & SE when it is not explicitly supported.

 

[NTK]

The issue not with mixing between BAL & SE devices when that is supported by the design of the balanced equipment. But rather, mixing BAL & SE when it is not explicitly supported.

As I said in my post #35, if you mix balanced and single ended signals, be sure you know what you are doing. The issue is mixing them without knowing what you are doing.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

As I said in my post #35, if you mix balanced and single ended signals, be sure you know what you are doing. The issue is mixing them without knowing what you are doing.

Yea, my bad. And absolutely agree with you (obviously, since my reply said what you said).

I too quickly read the first part of the opening sentence and missed the qualification on the last part of it.

 

[AudioJester]

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I recently had a disappointing encounter with a Topping product, specifically the D10B. As I was enjoying my music, it suddenly fell silent. After ruling out other potential issues with my setup (source, pre-amp, power amp, and speakers), it became evident that the D10B was the culprit. Upon rebooting, I heard some clicky sounds, but no music played.

This isn’t my first run-in with Topping products. When I initially purchased the D10B, it failed within a year. Regrettably, I paid around $100.00 to ship it back for repairs. Now, a little over a year later, it’s dead again—this time in the middle of listening to music.

What frustrates me most is that it is a serious design flaw related to the balanced output that Topping knows about but choose not to fix. And Topping initially failed to communicate this limitation clearly because when I bought it either there was nothing about this limitation on their website or it was carefully obscured because if I had seen that statement I never would have bought it.

Balanced audio circuits have been around for decades and are widely used in professional settings in part due to their robustness. So how did Topping manage to get the design of the balanced output so wrong? It’s baffling that improper plugging can damage the unit or it can break by simply playing music.

For reference, I have it connected the D10B’s balanced output to the balanced input of my Anthem STR preamplifier (https://anthemav.com/products-current/series=str-series/model=str-pre-amplifier/page=overview).

In hindsight, I admit my initial decision was less than wise. However, this experience has taught me a valuable lesson, and the D10B is now destined for the garbage bin.

Did they repair it even though it was user error? You only had to pay shipping cost?