Topping EX5 Failure

[syzygetic]

Well, it finally happened. After 3 years and 4 months of service, my Topping EX5 went black. I broke out the multimeter and checked the power supply as well as a few other critical paths in the circuit, but there's no apparent culprit. Manufacturer says it's out of warranty, and any shipping back to China would cost more than its worth.

Into the bin!

Is this a good deal? Honestly, I can't tell. I sure do feel like it's wasteful to be buying a new DAC every three years, even if it is relatively affordable. At the same time, One can spend $1200 on a DAC with worse quality and have no guarantees that it'll last longer.

Anyway, wanted to share this bittersweet experience of a cheap, performant device lasting barely long enough for me to not feel screwed.

 

[threni]

Stuff not lasting very long is why I don't buy much stuff, and when I do I get cheap stuff. It's a good reason for getting a separate amp and DAC too. I'd pay $1200 for a DAC if it was guaranteed for 15 years. Otherwise I'm getting $100 DACs.

Maybe you could sell in on eBay; presumably most of it isn't broken and would be useful spare parts?

 

[VintageFlanker]

Maybe it's time for a Master Thread about Topping's failures ?...

 

[syzygetic]

I do want to be clear that I am on the fence about my feelings here. I got three years of service from the EX5, and it worked great. Also, I only got three years of service. Would I buy another Topping? They're pretty cheap! Yeah, I might.

It's a pernicious thing though, and wasteful.

 

[Sokel]

Maybe it's time for a Master Thread about Topping's failures ?...

It's difficult for a user to report a failure,specially if it's one of those who can endanger down/upstream devices (specially speakers,as with a sudden volume jump,or DC incident for example) as people search such failures by username when they're about to buy second hand.

A master thread about failures in general would be nice though.

 

[Guddu]

It is electronic component after all.

 

[kemmler3D]

It's an interesting quandary. What would it take to get more reliability? At this point we don't even know for sure spending more is an adequate response.

To those that know about engineering electronics: What does it take (in terms of BOM cost) to make a piece of electronics last 10, 20, 30 years instead of 3? I assume getting the same performance out of a reliable unit is not a problem, but what would need to be done differently to get reliable electronics again? What would we need to give up? I don't know if it's as simple as "use more expensive parts" but I would believe it if an EE told me so.

 

[restorer-john]

It's not that it failed (we don't what caused the failure), but that there is no reasonable path to save it from landfill. That's the sad bit.

If Topping freely provided schematics and/or service data, you could make a more informed decision on what to do with it.

 

[syzygetic]

Having recently looked inside the EX5, the number one thing that would have made this easier to deal with would be serviceability. Everything is tiny, almost nothing is practically desolderable and replaceable. Sure, if it had been the power supply, or a plug, or maybe one of the larger capacitors, I could have done it myself, but I checked all those parts and they were fine. The rest was micro surface mount and monolithic chips. Not much to do there in terms of (even experienced) user repair.

The second most effective thing they could have done, which would also affect first most above, is to reduce (focus) the featureset. I didn't need this thing to do everything, I needed it to be audibly transparent. Of course, it was, but I'll bet something in the chain along the way either came along for the ride and failed, or else made the design more complicated and unserviceable.

The third most effective thing they could have done is to make the device explicitly higher quality and more serviceable and, therefore, more expensive to the consumer. If you told me there was a 70% chance of this device lasting 10 years and/or being repaired when it breaks through the use of swappable sockets and components, and also being $100 more expensive? Sure, I'd have bought it at the higher price. It's more annoying to swap it than it is to part with $100 up front.

 

[syzygetic]

It's not that it failed (we don't what caused the failure), but that there is no reasonable path to save it from landfill. That's the sad bit.

If Topping freely provided schematics and/or service data, you could make a more informed decision on what to do with it.

Yeah, absolutely this. A person who honestly does know what he's doing bothered to take it apart and trace what bits of the circuit are visible, and there was no sign of distress. Whatever went wrong was unrepairable by reasonable means, or at least unable to be diagnosed.

 

[syzygetic]

Oh, and another more positive note: I like the case design they used. Nice placement of screws, quite easy to get inside and / or reassemble the unit, and they bothered to use standoff washers and shields in the right places. Good ribbon cables of the right length and easily manipulated. It wasn't designed by the indifferent, just wasn't fixable.

 

[Guddu]

It's not that it failed (we don't what caused the failure), but that there is no reasonable path to save it from landfill. That's the sad bit.

If Topping freely provided schematics and/or service data, you could make a more informed decision on what to do with it.

Totally agree with you, but I guess it is similar case with most of single board type smaller cramped devices.
Although it shouldn’t have much to do with size as such but this race of bringing smallest size possible compromises some critical aspects like ease of troubleshooting and fixing issues.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

It's not that it failed (we don't what caused the failure), but that there is no reasonable path to save it from landfill. That's the sad bit

This!! ^^^

 

[JSmith]

there is no reasonable path to save it from landfill

No need to send such a device to landfill when there are many e-waste drop off and collection services available. Some Councils even offer a yearly e-waste collection now and many have places one can drop things off to, plus private companies too.

Into the bin!

Noooo...


JSmith

 

[MaxwellsEq]

To those that know about engineering electronics: What does it take (in terms of BOM cost) to make a piece of electronics last 10, 20, 30 years instead of 3

The best examples are where reliability is essential, but maintenance is impossible, such as space probes, satellites etc. Firstly, only milspec or better components are used. These are based on actual physical and then statistical modelling of the components, usually in very tough conditions, often to destruction. These components are much more expensive than domestic components. Secondly, entire populated boards are then heavily tested, again with extremes of heat, cold, vibration etc. This increases the price even more. The result is hundredfold or thousandfold multipliers of cost.

 

[restorer-john]

No need to send such a device to landfill when there are many e-waste drop off and collection services available. Some Councils even offer a yearly e-waste collection now and many have places one can drop things off to, plus private companies too.

Where does it all go, that is my question.

From what I have seen in many documentaries, it goes to third world countries where poverty stricken workers (and children) break this stuff down in truly horrible conditions. I for one, am never going to contribute to that.

I fear "e-waste" dropoff services are just a front for mass collection and disposal anywhere but our own backyard. The same has been happening with all our "recyclables" in this country. China used to take all our plastics, now it goes into "storage". Another name for kicking the can down the road...

 

[gamerpaddy]

would be interessting to see what actually failed.
you could put it on ebay as broken / parts only, im one of the people who looks in those categories for devices like this. its repairable for someone who has experience in most cases.
theres maybe 2..3 parts that are unobtainable if they are broken, mainly chips containing firmware. rest is off the shelf parts found on mouser / digikey


the EX5 uses a meanwell powerbrick inside, which is the only thing potted. rest is open air and wont get that hot. thats the first thing i would suspect to not output anything anymore.

cant see anything that i would have done differently in circuit layout.
yes its small components but thats how it goes, doesnt mean its worse or less repairable. you just need tweezers, a steady hand and hot air soldering.

the caps used are not bad quality either, i suspect them to be just fine. they usually only fail when getting hot for a long period of time.

and its the first EX5 i heard of that died?

may be due to outside factors. the components used are very sensitive to electrostatic discharge, sudden electromagnetic fields etc.
a friend has problems with his topping d10 when he stands up from his chair due to electrostatic that turns it off randomly. but his house wiring is a mess anyways.


if you were in the EU i would have taken a look at it. but from the US, it would make no sense to ship it here.
if it would appear on german ebay as defective, i would have still paid 50 bucks for it just to see if i can fix it.

 

[JSmith]

From what I have seen in many documentaries, it goes to third world countries where poverty stricken workers (and children) break this stuff down in truly horrible conditions.

Yes I've seen these doco's and was also horrified... people suffering serious illness from burning off cable plastics to get to the metal etc.

From what I recall much the e-waste was coming from the UK/EU and I vaguely recall after one doco was broadcast on the ABC, steps were taken to ensure Australian waste was not contributing anymore. As to the specifics of that, I would need to investigate.


JSmith

 

[fatoldgit]

I aint no expert but heat tends to be the enemy of electronic components and the smaller the case the worse the potential heat issues.

That's why I go for full sized cases... sure it might be 50% empty but it allows for spacing between different sections (esp power), allows for decent heat dissipation and potentially allows for better repairability as the board components dont need to be stuffed so close together.

Peter

 

[syzygetic]

I aint no expert but heat tends to be the enemy of electronic components and the smaller the case the worse the potential heat issues.

That's why I go for full sized cases... sure it might be 50% empty but it allows for spacing between different sections (esp power), allows for decent heat dissipation and potentially allows for better repairability as the board components dont need to be stuffed so close together.

Peter

EX5 actually isn’t crazy tight inside. I didn’t see a ton of opportunity for airflow, they’re relying on the aluminum case as a heatsink, but I’ve for sure seen tighter cases, especially in DACs!