Topping E50 Review (Balanced DAC)

[kchap]

No adapters per se. Either TRS<>TRS or TRS/XLR short cable to regular
XLR<>XLR cable.

Was trying to answer a question about the spacing to fit other cables and or adapters from other members.

My suggestion is; don't bother with adapters or short TRS<>XLR cables. Instead, purchase longer TRS<>XLR cables. There are plenty on AliExpress and Amazon.

if they don't fit your needs, there are specialist companies online that can make/supply audio cables.

 

[Palladium]

Usually TRS->XLR adapters are too wide to fit into compact sized DACs with TRS only outs, and I can find 3 meter TRS->XLR male cables that costs less than the adapters anyway.

BTW don't use any TRS->XLR for mic preamps unless you really know what you are doing with phantom power.

 

[usern]

My E50 is plugged with a pair of TRS Neutrik NP3X without hassles.
14.5mm plug overall diameter.

When I measure the spacing it's something between 15mm - 16mm, can't really get exact there because you need to eyeball 2 center points. But there seems to be plenty space anyway. My audio interface has same TRS connector spacing as Topping device.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

When I measure the spacing it's something between 15mm - 16mm, can't really get exact there because you need to eyeball 2 center points. But there seems to be plenty space anyway. My audio interface has same TRS connector spacing as Topping device.

Measuring top-to-top should be the same distance as center-to-center since both holes are the exact same diameter.

 

[jcarys]

I finally moved the E50/L50 from my home theater to my desktop to replace the E30/L30. They were simply collecting dust in the other room now that I have the Shield to handle Tidal in both stereo and Atmos. The Topping is arguably superior in stereo, but it's just not worth the constant switching.

Does it make any difference to the USB input if go directly from the PC, or if it's routed USB-C to a monitor and then to the E50? I doubt it, but just in case.
Thanks to all.

 

[Gradius]

The E50's TRS output is a 100% balanced output achieved through the combination of an op amp.

A confusion here, is the L50.

Btw, Wolf's shows less than 1dB gain by using "balanced" on E50, which doesn't add up:

Measurements of Topping E50 DAC - L7Audiolab

台式设备 Topping E50 应该是拓品第一台基于9068的解码？其实不止一次觉得测量拓品家的解码/耳放产品线是无趣的事情……无论如何呢……这货就这样摆在我的面前

www.l7audiolab.com

 

[staticV3]

Btw, Wolf's shows less than 1dB gain by using "balanced" on E50, which doesn't add up:

Why does less than 1db gain not "add up"?

 

[Gradius]

Why does less than 1db gain not "add up"?

Because balanced should make a substantial difference from RCA, at least a db or two.

 

[staticV3]

Because balanced should make a substantial difference from RCA, at least a db or two.

Why?

 

[Gradius]

Why?

Few examples:

Balanced vs unbalanced connections—what does it mean and what are the benefits?

A balanced connection is touted as the best you can get with audio gear, but what are the real-world benefits to these connectors?

www.soundguys.com

Balanced vs Unbalanced Audio Connections

Getting the best sound from your headphone setup can be a balancing act, but does it have to be? Learn what is balanced and unbalanced audio connection today.

www.headphonesty.com

Balanced Vs. Unbalanced Audio: What’s the Difference?

Curious about the difference between Balanced and Unbalanced Audio? Get clarity on the key differences in the Castr blog.

castr.com

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Few examples:

Balanced vs unbalanced connections—what does it mean and what are the benefits?

A balanced connection is touted as the best you can get with audio gear, but what are the real-world benefits to these connectors?

www.soundguys.com

Balanced vs Unbalanced Audio Connections

Getting the best sound from your headphone setup can be a balancing act, but does it have to be? Learn what is balanced and unbalanced audio connection today.

www.headphonesty.com

Balanced Vs. Unbalanced Audio: What’s the Difference?

Curious about the difference between Balanced and Unbalanced Audio? Get clarity on the key differences in the Castr blog.

castr.com

Those articles are primarily focused on the benefit of balanced connections and their ability to reject common mode noise that is introduced anywhere between the source's amplifier and the balanced circuitry at the receiver side (which includes any noise introduced in the cable connecting the source to the receiver). But Wolf's measurement is the SINAD of the device itself at its output point, not the SINAD at the end of the cable run.

Also a call out to the Headphonesty article... they do a great job calling out the difference between balanced/unbalanced connections vs. differential/single ended signals:

All connections are unbalanced or balanced and all amplifiers are either single-ended or differential.

So the question remains: why should the SINAD of the E50 at the TRS output be substantially different from the SINAD at the RCA output of the E50? And given the architecture of the E50, is the relatively small SINAD difference an issue and/or evidence of a poor design or implementation by TOPPING?

 

[usern]

And given the architecture of the E50, is the relatively small SINAD difference an issue and/or evidence of a poor design or implementation by TOPPING?

Both outputs are on the edge of Audio Precision SINAD measurement range. That is rather good and not poor design.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Both outputs are on the edge of Audio Precision SINAD measurement range. That is rather good and not poor design.

I think the person asking the question believed that even though the results are very good, the balanced outputs were not designed as well as they should have been since the SINAD was such a small delta between the two output options.

 

[Toku]

Few examples:

Balanced vs unbalanced connections—what does it mean and what are the benefits?

A balanced connection is touted as the best you can get with audio gear, but what are the real-world benefits to these connectors?

www.soundguys.com

Balanced vs Unbalanced Audio Connections

Getting the best sound from your headphone setup can be a balancing act, but does it have to be? Learn what is balanced and unbalanced audio connection today.

www.headphonesty.com

Balanced Vs. Unbalanced Audio: What’s the Difference?

Curious about the difference between Balanced and Unbalanced Audio? Get clarity on the key differences in the Castr blog.

castr.com

This is only my opinion as a professional.
The technical explanation of balanced and unbalanced transmission in the article on the introduced page is generally correct. However, balanced transmission is not necessary in the general audiophile system. Balanced transmission is only necessary and effective in poor environments such as TV studios and stages where various signals are mixed up. I have been involved in the development of audio systems for such harsh environments for many years. From my perspective, the adoption of balanced transmission in consumer equipment is excessive and wasteful. It was adopted largely as a sales strategy by manufacturers. This becomes clear when tracing the history of the adoption of balanced transmission in consumer audio equipment. Nowadays, sales increase just by mentioning balun transmission. This tendency is particularly strong among Chinese manufacturers, further spreading the myth of balanced transmission.
Most balanced transmissions used in consumer audio equipment are pseudo-balanced transmissions using op amps. The circuit can be easily realized at low cost, but in truly harsh environments, pseudo-balanced transmission easily loses its function.
The author of the article is simply stating the legendary story of balanced transmission that is widespread among audiophiles, and does not appear to have much understanding of the true purpose of balanced transmission.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Most balanced transmissions used in consumer audio equipment are pseudo-balanced transmissions using op amps. The circuit can be easily realized at low cost, but in truly harsh environments, pseudo-balanced transmission easily loses its function.
The author of the article is simply stating the legendary story of balanced transmission that is widespread among audiophiles, and does not appear to have much understanding of the true purpose of balanced transmission.

As allude by @Toku, a key thing most people misunderstand (including me until very recently) about balanced audio is that it is simply two wires of equal impedance, so that the receiving end can reject any introduced common mode noise by subtracting the signal on one wire from the other wire. As such, it would still be a balanced output even if the device sent 2 Vrms on the positive wire and nothing (0 Vrms) on the negative wire — for a total of 2 Vrms signal from the balanced output, just like the 2 Vrms on the unbalanced output. And in such a case, the measured SINAD of the balanced and unbalanced output would be virtually identical.

By contrast, if my understanding is correct, professional studio equipment might have a much higher SINAD delta between the balanced output and the unbalanced output. Not because the output is balanced, but because the 15V power supplier of the professional device allows for output at +24 dBu (professional audio) nominal level on the balanced output, while limiting the total output to nominal line level appropriate for consumer audio gear on the unbalanced output. In which case, an output of 12.3 Vrms vs. 2 Vrms can allow for higher SINAD primarily because it is a high signal level amplification against the fixed noise floor of the device, not because it is using balanced outputs. Of course, nearly all professional audio devices will will be splitting that voltage across the 2 impedance-matched wires using a differential amplifier... but NOT ALWAYS! A simplified pseudo-balanced output (i.e., designed to plug into either a balanced or unbalanced audio device on the receiving side) could just send the entire 12.3 Vrms down the positive wire and 0 Vrms on the impedance matched negative wire.

In the case of the E50, the SINAD of the two outputs are comparing 2 Vrms vs. 4 Vrms at 0 dBFS. As such, the balanced output is not that much higher of a signal level at full scale volume. Of note: the maximum line level on the balanced output from the E50 is limited by the 5V power supply. On the other hand, the cost of an E50 is substantially lower than professional audio gear that operates at +24 dBu with a 15V power supply.

 

[VVR]

In the case of the E50, the SINAD of the two outputs are comparing 2 Vrms vs. 4 Vrms at 0 dBFS. As such, the balanced output is not that much higher of a signal level at full scale volume. Of note: the maximum line level on the balanced output from the E50 is limited by the 5V power supply. On the other hand, the cost of an E50 is substantially lower than professional audio gear that operates at +24 dBu with a 15V power supply.

I agree with you about the benefits or lack of such from balanced lines in home audio. The little gained in external noise suppression in domestic environment is somewhat lost from 2x number of active devices generating their own noise in the balanced circuit.
Just to clarify though that 4Vrms output can't be obtained from 5V supply. There are definitely voltage boosters in E50. IMO.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

I agree with you about the benefits or lack of such from balanced lines in home audio. The little gained in external noise suppression in domestic environment is somewhat lost from 2x number of active devices generating their own noise in the balanced circuit.
Just to clarify though that 4Vrms output can't be obtained from 5V supply. There are definitely voltage boosters in E50. IMO.

I didn't say there is no benefit from balanced lines in home audio. I'm on the side that thinks balanced is a good thing and it was a shame that consumer electronics standardized on unbalanced RCA instead of XLR/TRS. Not because balanced makes it sound better in the typical home context, but because balanced removes the risk of ground loop and common mode noise issues that might affect the sound for some people in some settings.

What I was trying to say is that the SINAD delta between unbalanced and balanced will be smaller when the Signal Level difference is smaller, such as in a lower power device such as the E50 (5V) by comparison to device with more power (e.g., 15V) on the Balanced output given the same noise floor. And that the SINAD delta can be higher when the Signal Level difference is much greater, such as in an RME ADI-2 Pro. The first sentence is about the mathematical properties of the SINAD measurement. The second sentence is about the actual engineering of the device itself, since the higher powered balanced output amplification stage may itself also have a higher noise floor.

In other words, it is not surprising that the E50 does not have a large SINAD delta. And that it is not a given that the SINAD difference between unbalanced and balanced will be large in the first place, even on professional gear at full power studio levels.

 

[VVR]

No doubt.
And it would be nice home power amps to accept 10-12Vrms input for full power output, not the usual appr 1-2V. I think with the CD player invention there was some increase in power amps input levels. In the 70s and early 80s 250mV for full output was normal. I guess the low signal from turntables were to blame.
Just a quick off topic. Apologies!

 

[Gradius]

Here are some p0rn for you guys.

OPAMPs are OPA1612 (aka OVII TI).

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I like a lot this cute trio.