Topping E30 DAC Review

[samsa]

Or what's the point of volume on the display large size? To keep it all the time at maximumin conjunction with an integrated amplifier? ))

In PRE mode, the E30 displays the volume (in dBFs). In DAC mode, it displays the sample rate (in kHz).

If you have an integrated amplifier or a preamp or are plugging it into a headphone amplifier, then you want to use the E30 in DAC mode.

 

[Toku]

Yes, @Toku but it seems this is exactly where the problem lies with E30.
When used in preamp mode and connected to a power amp (one without volume control), due to the way the AK dac chip works, there's an audible pop sound when sample rate changes and volume is adjusted and there's probably nothing that can be done about it. It's seems that all dacs using these chips exhibit this behavior.
This is kind of a deal breaker when you're considering using E30 in exactly this scenario and in my case I'm holding off buying it for now.
My use case would involve Raspberry PI -> E30 -> tube amp. The tube amp does have a potentiometer but for me there's still this unknown about the level of audiability of this pop sound. I guess the only way to answer this querstion is to try it out for myself.
Ignoring the pop-problem it really is looks like the dac I want to have - simple, small form factory, attractively priced, good connectivity etc.
This issue is being somewhat overlooked here and the recommended remedy is to get a preamp in between E30 and a power amp in order to attenuate the pop sound, but the problem with this setup is that you need to buy more gear (preamp). I hope you can see, how the simple solution is not that simple anymore.

I tried to verify the problem you point out with E30.
As you pointed out, when you connect the E30 in Pre mode with the maximum volume of the power amplifier, you can see that a slightly loud pop noise appears when switching songs.
Pop noise is generated even when the power is turned on / off.
It comes out regardless of the volume level of E30.
I verified the same thing with D50, but no pop noise appeared.
It's already 01:00 AM, so I'll test it on the DX3 Pro and M500 tomorrow.

 

[samsa]

My use case would involve Raspberry PI -> E30 -> tube amp. The tube amp does have a potentiometer but for me there's still this unknown about the level of audiability of this pop sound. I guess the only way to answer this querstion is to try it out for myself.

My E30 is in DAC mode and the volume setting on my preamp is usually somewhere between -25 and -30 dBFS. At that level, I have never heard the pop. Indeed, I would not know of its existence were I not reading this forum. The "needle drop" on a phonograph is infinitely more obtrusive. (The pop appears when switching sample rates so, like the needle drop, it's not something that will occur between tracks on an album.)

 

[yejun]

My E30 is in DAC mode and the volume setting on my preamp is usually somewhere between -25 and -30 dBFS. At that level, I have never heard the pop. Indeed, I would not know of its existence were I not reading this forum. The "needle drop" on a phonograph is infinitely more obtrusive. (The pop appears when switching sample rates so, like the needle drop, it's not something that will occur between tracks on an album.)

My experience is about same in pre mode. It does not pop unless you switch a song in the middle of playing.

 

[PyramidElectric]

I'm getting the sense that this sample change 'pop' is getting blown out of proportion, any chance someone with an E30 could record the speaker output at a normalish listening volume so we all understand what's being referred to here?
I'm sure even a phone video uploaded to youtube would do the trick...

 

[parabola]

It comes out regardless of the volume level of E30.

@Toku, that's because

Hmm. Use the volume pot on the amp. It attenuates the pop along with the music that's how that works. If the volume on the dac is used, the pop is "essentially at max volume" regardless of the volume settings because the pop happens after the volume control.

Regarding the lack of noise with D50

I verified the same thing with D50, but no pop noise appeared.

D50 is equipped with ESS Sabre chip.

It's a small pop.... even with power amp. There will not be a pop when using preamp or headphone amp. If you still care about this. Only way you are getting away with this is to use ASRC, like the one in ESS chips.

I'm getting the sense that this sample change 'pop' is getting blown out of proportion, any chance someone with an E30 could record the speaker output at a normalish listening volume so we all understand what's being referred to here?
I'm sure even a phone video uploaded to youtube would do the trick...

@PyramidElectric, great idea!
I don't mean to make this sound like a bigger problem than it actually is. I really have no idea how loud it is. I believe people that want to buy this device are genuinly concerned about the forementioned issue and are not willing to invest resources - money, time, return shipping in case it doesn't work for them.

My E30 is in DAC mode and the volume setting on my preamp is usually somewhere between -25 and -30 dBFS. At that level, I have never heard the pop. Indeed, I would not know of its existence were I not reading this forum. The "needle drop" on a phonograph is infinitely more obtrusive. (The pop appears when switching sample rates so, like the needle drop, it's not something that will occur between tracks on an album.)

@samsa, I guess that's because you're using a preamp between your amp and E30 or you're using integrated amplifier (with volume control).
Can you try and

1. Connect E30 directly to your amp
2. Set E30 in preamp mode
3. Turn down the volume of the E30
4. If the amp has volume control turn it up to a level that you'd normally listen it to
5. Play a song
6. turn the volume of the E30 to moderate listening level or even all the way up to 0db, if your amps volume was adjusted in 4.
7. change songs with different sampling rate
8. can you hear the pop when switching songs?
9. if you can, can you record the sound and share it with us?

In my envisioned setup I'm planning to have the E30 in preamp mode set to max volume (0db) with the tube amp volume adjusted, to levels slighly above comfortable listening level. As I can't control the volume of the amp remotely I'll be adjusting the one on the E30.
Does anyone think I'd be able to hear the pop sound in this usecase scenario?

 

[Tiller]

Hi everyone,
I have been thinking of bying the E30 since it appeared.
Earlier I tried several (~10) DACs budget and medium priced as well.
The only problem with this one is the occasional pop sound during playback.
According to my experience it is not a special "feature" of the AKM chip.
I had this sound (artifact) from DACs of ESS chip and I had DACs on AKM without it.
So it is definitely a bug in the design or FW that ought to be fixed because
after a short while it becomes very annoying.

 

[poimandres]

All the necessary cables for the e30 to function properly are provided with it. Also I understand this whole interconnect discussion is off topic (because it applies to any DAC in general. Not only the E30).
It is custom on a forum to stay on topic. This topic is about reviewing the E30. Not a general discussion about interconnects. It seems to me you don't understand that.

Edit:
Or maybe there is something lost in translation?

I have both usb cables plugged in to my e30, why is there no sound?

Perhaps something is lost in translation or maybe you received rca cables with your e30. I can assure you that I did not.

Regarding the pops they are there, they may not be that loud but they are noticeable.

 

[AndyLu]

I have both usb cables plugged in to my e30, why is there no sound?

Perhaps something is lost in translation or maybe you received rca cables with your e30. I can assure you that I did not.

Regarding the pops they are there, they may not be that loud but they are noticeable.

You got me there about the RCA cables. But if you read my answer carefully you would have noticed that I was talking in the context of specific cables needed for the DAC to function because the whole discussion went off topic about generic interconnects. Context matters.
About the plop: Since I have installed the firmware update I don't experience a noticable plop anymore. Your miles may vary, because you probably have another equipment chain than I have. You did install the firmware update didn't you?

 

[samsa]

@samsa, I guess that's because you're using a preamp between your amp and E30 or you're using integrated amplifier (with volume control).
Can you try and

1. Connect E30 directly to your amp
2. Set E30 in preamp mode
3. Turn down the volume of the E30
4. If the amp has volume control turn it up to a level that you'd normally listen it to
5. Play a song
6. turn the volume of the E30 to moderate listening level or even all the way up to 0db, if your amps volume was adjusted in 4.
7. change songs with different sampling rate
8. can you hear the pop when switching songs?
9. if you can, can you record the sound and share it with us?

I would suggest that you ask one of the people complaining bitterly about the pop to supply a recording of what they find objectionable, rather than asking someone who's not complaining.

In my envisioned setup I'm planning to have the E30 in preamp mode set to max volume (0db) with the tube amp volume adjusted, to levels slighly above comfortable listening level. As I can't control the volume of the amp remotely I'll be adjusting the one on the E30.
Does anyone think I'd be able to hear the pop sound in this usecase scenario?

If you're only going to be adjusting the volume control on the E30 by a few dB, then the pop will be inaudible. At -5dB on the E30 (with my preamp set to -20dB, which is quite loud), the pop was comparable to the surface noise on an (good condition) LP -- audible (barely) if the track begins with silence, but completely unobjectionable (again, it doesn't occur between tracks on the same album).

 

[Illtrick]

I reiterate that while the pop is present in my setup I've overcome the majority of annoyance with gapless playback. In perspective of the price and and objective quality of the product in all other aspects I now recommend this to anyone looking for a phenominal performance / value dac. As per the copious concerns of the pop I believe we have an echo chamber problem here.

 

[conuss]

In perspective of the price and and objective quality of the product in all other aspects I now recommend this to anyone looking for a phenominal performance / value dac

Using Pre mode with a power amplifier without volume control is quite dangerous.

 

[PyramidElectric]

Using Pre mode with a power amplifier without volume control is quite dangerous.

Could you please present some evidence of this? Your descriptions of the problem here seem somewhat hysterical in comparison to what others are saying, and I'm genuinely intrigued as to why that is.

 

[Toku]

I actually verified the E30 problem that was pointed out.
The power amplifier set the input volume to the maximum volume, and performed it under the same conditions as the power amplifier without the input volume.

When E30 is connected in Pre mode, a slightly larger pop noise is output when switching between different bit rate songs.
Pop noise is generated even when the power is turned on / off.
It comes out regardless of the volume level of E30.
The noise level is a little disturbing, but you can ignore it and use it.

I tried to verify with D50, DX3Pro, M500 in the same Pre mode.

The D50 does not produce pop noise when switching songs, but pop noise occurs when the power is turned on and off.
But the pop noise that appears when playing PCM 384kHz is much more problematic.

DX3Pro Ver1 does not produce pop noise. The relay operates every time the song is switched, and the pop noise is completely erased. However, there are many complaints that this relay operation sound is noisy, and the circuit has been drastically changed in Ver2.

On M500 (HW: 1.2 SW: 1.5), a pop sound is produced although it is a smaller sound than E30.
I'm more concerned with sound leaks to the RCA XLR in headphone mode and pop noise when the power switch on the back is turned on / off than pop noise when switching songs.

From my experience so far, I think that the E30 pop noise is due to a bug in the XMOS USB DAC Driver.
Everyone, please report this symptom to Topping and expect it to improve with the next firmware update.
Regarding the fact that the display of the E30 could not be turned off, they answered that they would consider adding automatic on / off at the next product improvement.

 

[Illtrick]

I actually verified the E30 problem that was pointed out.
From my experience so far, I think that the E30 pop noise is due to a bug in the XMOS USB DAC Driver.

I'd love that to be true. Glad to hear their support is active too. Too many companies slack on support.

 

[samsa]

From my experience so far, I think that the E30 pop noise is due to a bug in the XMOS USB DAC Driver.

Could you explain that?

I was under the impression that this pop was inherent to delta-sigma DACs. While it can be mitigated in various ways (say, with a relay as in the DX3pro), it's produced by the DAC chip itself (in particular, it occurs downstream the digital volume control) and has nothing to do with the USB interface upstream of the DAC chip.

The fact that it is undiminished by the digital volume control already tells you that it is produced downstream of the digital volume control (which is on the DAC chip itself), not upstream of it.

 

[conuss]

I use it as a pre with an amp

Here it is important that you specify the model specifically. Because previously there was a misunderstanding: these are amplifiers with their own volume control or not.

 

[samsa]

OK, I recorded the "pop pop" noise on sample rate change from the RCA outputs of the E30 in Pre mode using a Behringer UCA202 (48 kHz sample rate). Shown here along with a -20 dBFS reference signal (I've compensated for the -7.5 dB gain of the UCA202).

First, E30 volume set to 0 dBFS

View attachment 62251

And then with the E30 volume set to -20 dBFS

View attachment 62252

Note that reducing the E30 volume did not reduce the amplitude of the pops.

Thanks for quantifying the problem!

At its peak, the pop is -40 dB -50 dB (regardless of the volume setting on the E30). With my preamp volume control set at -25 → -30 dB, that attenuates the pop to -65 → -70 dB -75 → -80 dB. If you're using the E30 as your volume control, then the pop is still at -40 dB -50 dB. If, like @parabola , you're doing a little of both, then you can now estimate by how much the pop is attenuated.

 

[Daverz]

Thanks for quantifying the problem!

At its peak, the pop is -40 dB (regardless of the volume setting on the E30). With my preamp volume control set at -25 → -30 dB, that attenuates the pop to -65 → -70 dB. If you're using the E30 as your volume control, then the pop is still at -40 dB. If, like @parabola , you're doing a little of both, then you can now estimate by how much the pop is attenuated.

According to Audacity, the peak is -37.5 dBFS.

 

[conuss]

Could you please present some evidence of this? Your descriptions of the problem here seem somewhat hysterical in comparison to what others are saying, and I'm genuinely intrigued as to why that is.

And what do the others say? In turn, I have not yet met a single case of combining with a power amplifier without its volume control. If franspambot confirms that it has just such an amplifier, I will be extremely happy. because I was going to use it myself.