Topping E30 DAC Review

[Lero]

I remember last year I was trying to do room eq with my Paradigm Studio Sub15.

One laptop is very old Windows 98 based laptop. The other is newer laptop with latest Windows OS. Same USB cable. Both laptops run on battery. Connect the old laptop via USB to the sub, I would hear faint electrical noises came out of the sub. Using the newer laptop, sub is not making noise.

So the source equipment matter. Would adding anything between the old laptop usb out and the sub"s USB in helps, I wonder.

How do you know if someone using noisy equipment upstream of a DAC is not hearing better sound once the noises are suppressed?

The old laptop had very bad electricity control due to bad circuits, its not even considerable a normal source if emits bad digital sound couse bad digital sound doesent exist at all, its just data, clicks and sparkle are due to bad circuits that emits wrong voltages and sensible electronics like sub dac/amplifer make it louder. Source matter of course if its working properly. Suppressing bad equipment electricity doesen't solve the problem it just reduce it a little. U should not make a chain of attenuator .

 

[BDWoody]

Connect the old laptop via USB to the sub,

How did you connect via USB to the subwoofer?

 

[slartibart]

Anyway, back on topic then...



I'm not sure why it shows DSD first, but changes in sample rate and specially changes from PCM/DSD do come with a slight pop sound. As far as known it is not something that can be fixed with firmware.

You're not the only one with the 45.15 DSD issue though: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pping-e30-dac-review.12119/reply&quote=449116, also https://forum.headphones.com/t/topping-e30-dac-issues-with-raspberry-pi-4/8990 and https://community.roonlabs.com/t/topping-e30-dac-startup-sync-issue/126471. And there is also a reference to 1024*44100 here: https://www.xcore.com/viewtopic.php?t=3523&start=10 (though otherwise rather offtopic). This might actually be a firmware issue that Topping could have a look into

I did some more investigation. If I turn off Auto Standby so the DAC does not go into standby when the USB input is turned off then the display just shows --- and the blue USB symbol flashes. When I switch on the USB input signal I still see 45.15 DSD on the display which changes to 44.1 PCM after a couple of seconds but now there is no noise. So the noise only occurs when locking on to the player sample rate when the DAC comes out of standby and not if the DAC remains on. I have no idea why the two situations are different but hopefully Topping do.

 

[Pdxwayne]

How did you connect via USB to the subwoofer?

Paradigm Sub15 has a USB port at the back only for room eq purpose. This sub has the capabilities to do room eq using ARC Genesis software. The laptop would connect to sub via USB at one end and connect to a mic via another USB connection.

 

[Pdxwayne]

The old laptop had very bad electricity control due to bad circuits, its not even considerable a normal source if emits bad digital sound couse bad digital sound doesent exist at all, its just data, clicks and sparkle are due to bad circuits that emits wrong voltages and sensible electronics like sub dac/amplifer make it louder. Source matter of course if its working properly. Suppressing bad equipment electricity doesen't solve the problem it just reduce it a little. U should not make a chain of attenuator .

OK. How about suppressing noices in normal working system?

What do you think about this video?

 

[Lero]

OK. How about suppressing noices in normal working system?

What do you think about this video?

google search : how to sell a kidney

 

[voodooless]

How did you connect via USB to the subwoofer?

I think it's used for setting up the room EQ.

 

[Pdxwayne]

google search : how to sell a kidney

I do wonder if anyone already disprove the video.....

 

[voodooless]

I do wonder if anyone already disprove the video.....

The recording noise on the video alone debunks it And if not that the audio clipping will

 

[Pdxwayne]

The recording noise on the video alone debunks it And if not that the audio clipping will

You are judging it based on YouTube video audio quality or the actual graphs that were shown?

 

[Lero]

You are judging it based on YouTube video audio quality or the actual graphs that were shown?

i think its actually a joke....

 

[voodooless]

i think its actually a joke....

I was only half joking... In any case, this video just oozes bullshit from all orophoses. 101.4 dB Dynamic range from a recording that can only have a maximum of 96dB of dynamic range? It was a 16 bit source, sampling it at 24 bits does not give it any more.. it's clearly nonsense.

You cannot actually use Audio DiffMaker to evaluate these kind of things. The auto alignment only works on whole samples, so you'll need to start the recording of both sources at the exact same time to be able to subtract the actual files. Any tiny misalignment will invalidate the result, which is exactly what happens here.

And now really back on topic, I you want to discuss more make your own topic, or buy the damn thing and send it in for testing . I hope @finitol found some time to stroke his E30 some more

 

[ROOSKIE]

I remember last year I was trying to do room eq with my Paradigm Studio Sub15.

One laptop is very old Windows 98 based laptop. The other is newer laptop with latest Windows OS. Same USB cable. Both laptops run on battery. Connect the old laptop via USB to the sub, I would hear faint electrical noises came out of the sub. Using the newer laptop, sub is not making noise.

So the source equipment matter. Would adding anything between the old laptop usb out and the sub"s USB in helps, I wonder.

How do you know if someone using noisy equipment upstream of a DAC is not hearing better sound once the noises are suppressed?

*disclaimer - I know this thread has been a bit hijacked and at the same time IMHO sometimes this is for the best.*
Yes, these noises are part of what is being tested here. Sometimes maybe the USB output of the device is noisy.
Now the question is something along the line of can adding a "special" USB or some other product fix that?

Maybe, but you would be able to test and MEASURE this particular flaw. You make changes and remeasure.

Ground loops are very common issues and can originate from all sorts of combinations of gear. For example in my car any time my phone is is connected via headphones output to my DSP-408 and is also charging I get some noise, I guarantee you I can measure that noise along with hearing it.

Many expensive products out there such as power conditioners and cables make claims to fix these issues, will they? If they do you most certainly can measure the changes. I can subjectively hear the ground loop and I can objectively measure it.
All this forum is essentially doing is measuring gear with fairly advanced equipment and proving that the gear lives lives up it's promise objectively.
The test equipment here is sensitive, in the same way a microscope sees smaller things than we can see with the naked eye visually this equipment sees small things in the auditory realm.

If a manufacturer has a product that truly works it will be able to substantiate it and they will be happy to have it investigated. There are many products that do work as described.
There are many that do not. It doesn't need to be an exotic claim. A very simple example would the all to common amplifier power claim. How many amps to we see now claiming far more power than they actually test with?
There is a lot of money at stake and for many people money is a great temptation, exaggerating or even outright lying has become common place. (certainly not just in audio)

I feel for Hydra too.....

Amir's measurements are clean. But someone out there will have ground loop issue. Imagine everyone here said ground loop issue is pure imagination and it is all in his/her head....He/her needs to prove to everyone with measurements and doing double blind to conclusively convince people he/she is not delusional.

The thing is you could measure that ground loop. You understand what I mean right? A ground loop is verifiable that way. If for some reason your combination of cables and gear has created a ground loop that is audible it most certainly is also measurable.

Now are there aspects of sound that we can hear but don't have a good measurement system for, that do not translate well objectively yet? Likely there are. However bear in mind that by now with all the good measurements we can take, that loop hole, while real, is getting pretty small in terms of HIFI gear.
While HIFI is quite mature in it's present forms, many improvements are still yet to made and some things will always remain hard to put a finger on.
Unfortunately $1000 speaker wires, TOSLINK connectors and AC chords and may other products are IMHO purely an exploration of that loop hole.

I feel for you Hydra as I too sometimes give subjective opinions and never provide any substantial evidence except I like what I heard . I too have been mocked by some over here but fret not, words cannot hurt us (agree to disagree lol). However, I too rely on the reviews here to guide me on what gears to buy especially the cheap but have decent to more than decent measurements. Guys, sometimes your rolleyes hurt us but perhaps we brought it upon ourselves so to me all is good. Actually I do have fun poking subjective comments and see some of you coming out of the woodwork to straighten things out. Hilarious I say

There is nothing wrong with subjectivity. If you like a speaker with extra bass no problem. If you like a little 3rd order harmonic distortion in your tweeter to add some edge to your grunge, techno, power chord driven music no problem.
This is the spice of life - fat bass, tight bass, smooth treble, screaming treble. Tube amps may not measure well in terms of "accuracy" but if they look cool to you and you like the warm sound no problem.
If you want cool looking speaker wires, no problem, like yellow woofer cones no problem, enjoy real wood veneer no problem. Audio jewelry has it's place.
Do you want a DIY speaker that looks handmade, do you want a speaker that looks so high tech and pristine it was more likely carved out of a solid block of another dimension - all good stuff.

Thinking and feeling your music sounds great is important. Without the subjective stamp of approval of your personal experience you have nothing.

Audio (everything) is an adventure, just watch out for the Thneeds.

 

[megapleb]

Thanks for the detailed review. I have an E30 on the way to replace my Schiit Modi 2 Uber.

I made the decision to buy for three reasons:
- my amp is the JDS Atom and I'd like both units to be the same colour
- I like the idea of being able to see the sample frequency on the device (though I do wish it would disappear after a few seconds rather than continuing to display)
- the measurements from the review of the Modi 2 Uber suggested a lot of issues, even though I've greatly enjoyed listening through it for years.

I think my E30 is on the slow boat, so I expect it to take 3-4 weeks to arrive.

I was concerned when I saw how long this thread was, but having been through the whole thing, now understand that while there are/were a few issues with the E30, there's also a lot of tangential conversation. Also, it's nice to see that so many of the forum members are friendly and helpful, it reminds me a bit of arstechnica where I've been a member for 20 years.

A suggestion for US based people looking to buy - try Apos. I bought the E30 through Ali Express, but got into a chat with Apos when looking at buying the MoonDrop Blessing 2. They matched a good deal I found on AE, but also didn't charge me sales tax. So I should (delivery is scheduled for today), get my IEMs for a lower cost, delivered quicker, and with a two year warranty. Had I known, I would have taken the same path for the E30.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I was only half joking... In any case, this video just oozes bullshit from all orophoses. 101.4 dB Dynamic range from a recording that can only have a maximum of 96dB of dynamic range? It was a 16 bit source, sampling it at 24 bits does not give it any more.. it's clearly nonsense.

You cannot actually use Audio DiffMaker to evaluate these kind of things. The auto alignment only works on whole samples, so you'll need to start the recording of both sources at the exact same time to be able to subtract the actual files. Any tiny misalignment will invalidate the result, which is exactly what happens here.

And now really back on topic, I you want to discuss more make your own topic, or buy the damn thing and send it in for testing . I hope @finitol found some time to stroke his E30 some more

Good comments. Like I said, I am curious about its validity and wish that there is someone else actually did similar comparisons.

Regarding dynamic range, may I know why a 24bits files (source from 16 bit file) can't have dynamic range of over 100 dB? If the maximum is 0 dB (I assume it is in the video, but too blurry to confirm), then the lowest noise can reach lower than the original 16 bit file, can it not?

 

[voodooless]

Regarding dynamic range, may I know why a 24bits files (source from 16 bit file) can't have dynamic range of over 100 dB? If the maximum is 0 dB, then the lowest noise can reach lower than the original 16 biy file, can it not?

Because the 16 bit file cannot resolve more than 16 bits. That is the limit you’ll have to work with.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Because the 16 bit file cannot resolve more than 16 bits. That is the limit you’ll have to work with.

So if the lowest low in 16 bit file is the absolute low it can go in 16 bit file, like totally quite, when captured in 24 bit file, the lowest low of 24 bit file could never go lower than the 16 bit lowest low? I thought the transcoder would simply add lots of zeros to the 16 bit lowest low, thus the 24bit file can show lower low?

 

[megapleb]

So if the lowest low in 16 bit file is the absolute low it can go in 16 bit file, like totally quite, when captured in 24 bit file, the lowest low of 24 bit file could never go lower than the 16 bit lowest low? I thought the transcoder would simply add lots of zeros to the 16 bit lowest low, thus the 24bit file can show lower low?

0.0000000000000
is not lower that
0.0000

More detail is not a lower absolute minimum.

To voodooless's point, if the value from the music source is 1.27648, adding more potential detail (the increase from 16 to 24 bits) without an increase in available information, just makes the value 1.27648000, which is the same value as before.

Edit - I'm not adding the correct increase in detail from 16 to 24 bits, but that isn't necessary to illustrate the point.

 

[Pdxwayne]

0.0000000000000
is not lower that
0.0000

More detail is not a lower absolute minimum.

It is not about more details. It is about less noise.

The process is DAC then ADC.

 

[megapleb]

It is not about more details. It is about less noise.

The process is DAC then ADC.

Noise, detail (as I've used it above), and dynamic range are all tied together.

Try reading this.