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Topping DAC`s

rickyhgarcia

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Why do I want to spend $899 on a 123db SINAD Topping, when I can buy a $399 Topping with 120 SINAD? Is this a marketing headache for Topping?
 

Blumlein 88

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Does one have more features the other lacks or are you simply unable to sleep knowing you left 3 db SINAD on the table? If the latter then it sounds like your problem.
 

Killingbeans

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Supply and demand. People want DACs that take full advantage of the latest chips from AKM and ESS, and Topping delivers.

Never mind the audibility. We just want shiny new things :p

It doesn't give the chip manufacturers any headaches when they offer silly things like DSD and 32bit/768khz, so why should Topping care about asking a premium for a few extra pointless dB SINAD? I bet both products sell just fine without special consideration in the marketing.
 

raif71

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Of course if two dacs have similar sinad and that one has more headroom at the amp than the other ie they sound similar but the other need higher volume (we're level matching here), then I would choose the one that provides more headroom to the amp, that is if I can afford it.
 

Jose Hidalgo

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Why do I want to spend $899 on a 123db SINAD Topping, when I can buy a $399 Topping with 120 SINAD? Is this a marketing headache for Topping?
The real question is: why would you spend $399 on a 120 SINAD Topping, when you can buy a $150 Topping with 112 SINAD and still be unable to hear a difference since 112 SINAD is beyond human hearing ability anyway? :p

In DAC-land, it's not "the bigger the SINAD the better the DAC". It's rather "find the cheapest one that remains completely transparent for the ear (as all DACs should be) and has all the desired features".

Performance-wise, the $150 Topping fits the bill, as proven by all its excellent measurements (because it's not only about SINAD : things like multitone matter too, check it out). I should know, I have three of them. ;)
 

iMickey503

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Why do I want to spend $899 on a 123db SINAD Topping, when I can buy a $399 Topping with 120 SINAD? Is this a marketing headache for Topping?
I don't think topping themselves really do to much in marketing at all. They sort of did the thing everyone was not doing. Make a really good name for themselves by making something that everyone wanted. An attainable line of Audio gear that anyone can buy an be proud to own and use.

Simple. Elegant. And it just works. The performance & reliability day in and day out is what really sold me. I tortured the Little AD-10 in my car in direct sunshine. High SPL, Vibration, Sub Par USB power etc. I even split the signal from 2-8. Not a sweat!

I even dropped it. No problem. The Black box was almost too hot to touch and I kept it in my Dash. STILL. It just kept on going. We are talking 6 hours strong. No issues. NONE.

If the entry level DAC from TOPPING does this? Chances are the entire line may be built like tanks. Whatever one you wish to get? Can't go wrong IMO.

I have heard some great sounding gear in my car and my home. But with Topping? Its like you no longer have to worry that you are missing out on something. Its like peace of mind for me.

The SINAD thing? I'm just a Humble lover of music. And the only thing I may be good at is noticing when things have flaws in playback. With the higher numbers? It's just assurance that down the line, the source is the best I can get. If there are any problems? Its not the Topping DAC. Its the gear down the chain. Any Hiss? Any crackles, any issues with playback? Its not the DAC. Its either for sure the Music being played being flawed or recorded bad? Or the rest of the gear in my playback chain.

Unlike Home audio, in cars, you sit about 2-3 feet away from your tweeters. On Axis? You can hear damn near everything. Hiss is a BIG issue. Any noise or interference is going to show its ugly face.

With the TOPPING? I know it's the recording or my gear. And let me be clear. Even with multiple devices causing interference in my car? Ground loops, WiFi, CCFL drivers LED drivers PWM's in the car, Spark Plug Cables etc. etc. The Topping JDGAF.

If that's how good (was a $100 Bucks) can give you?
giphy.gif






My next upgrade is to go XLR in my Cars.
 

MCH

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The real question is: why would you spend $399 on a 120 SINAD Topping, when you can buy a $150 Topping with 112 SINAD and still be unable to hear a difference since 112 SINAD is beyond human hearing ability anyway? :p

In DAC-land, it's not "the bigger the SINAD the better the DAC". It's rather "find the cheapest one that remains completely transparent for the ear (as all DACs should be) and has all the desired features".

Performance-wise, the $150 Topping fits the bill, as proven by all its excellent measurements (because it's not only about SINAD : things like multitone matter too, check it out). I should know, I have three of them. ;)
Hmm last time i checked if you want balanced out and volume control you needed to spend 300+
 

Bleib

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The real question is: why would you spend $399 on a 120 SINAD Topping, when you can buy a $150 Topping with 112 SINAD and still be unable to hear a difference since 112 SINAD is beyond human hearing ability anyway? :p

In DAC-land, it's not "the bigger the SINAD the better the DAC". It's rather "find the cheapest one that remains completely transparent for the ear (as all DACs should be) and has all the desired features".

Performance-wise, the $150 Topping fits the bill, as proven by all its excellent measurements (because it's not only about SINAD : things like multitone matter too, check it out). I should know, I have three of them. ;)
At this price point I'd rather go to DX3Pro+ (if non-balanced is enough) and get quite many more features for just a little more. It's really the price / performance king at this point.
 

antcollinet

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Why do I want to spend $899 on a 123db SINAD Topping, when I can buy a $399 Topping with 120 SINAD? Is this a marketing headache for Topping?

You might go D90 over EX5 for the I2S/AES inputs, more informative display or.... well that's about it. You'd also lose the Bluetooth.
 

Jose Hidalgo

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Hmm last time i checked if you want balanced out and volume control you needed to spend 300+
That's why I said "and has all the desired features". If you want balanced, you'll have to spend more money. But why would you?... o_O

I certainly wouldn't go balanced. After studying the subject a while ago and discussing it on the forums (even here), my conclusion is that balanced is a myth among audiophiles. It doesn't provide better audible performance. It just provides more power (which could be useful if your headphones were extremely difficult to drive and your amp wasn't powerful enough), and better signal integrity but only over HUGE distances (we're talking 50-100m before the difference becomes significant, those are distances that the average consumer will never experience at home) or in electrically challenging environments (again, not the average home).

As for volume control, again, that's up to everybody. I manage volume either digitally from my PC or via my amp's knob. Never via my DAC. To me a DAC doesn't need to do that. A DAC is just a DAC: a Digital/Analog Converter. Not an amplifier or an attenuator.

So, very few people really "need" to spend 300+ on a DAC. But again, everybody is free to do so in order to get the desired features.

At this price point I'd rather go to DX3Pro+ (if non-balanced is enough) and get quite many more features for just a little more. It's really the price / performance king at this point.
Yes (I even recommended it to my brother some time ago), but only if you need the fancy features such as Bluetooth. Not for performance reasons. For me the "perfect DAC" (perfect for my own needs) is the E30. For somebody else it may be the DX3Pro+, or even the A50s.

Some may even want to spend more money and that's up to them. I would definitely spend 1000$ on an Okto dac8, but only if I needed an 8-channel DAC. :p
 
OP
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rickyhgarcia

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The real question is: why would you spend $399 on a 120 SINAD Topping, when you can buy a $150 Topping with 112 SINAD and still be unable to hear a difference since 112 SINAD is beyond human hearing ability anyway? :p

In DAC-land, it's not "the bigger the SINAD the better the DAC". It's rather "find the cheapest one that remains completely transparent for the ear (as all DACs should be) and has all the desired features".

Performance-wise, the $150 Topping fits the bill, as proven by all its excellent measurements (because it's not only about SINAD : things like multitone matter too, check it out). I should know, I have three of them. ;)
I have seen those too, $399 was the lowest priced Topping with balanced and unbalanced output….
 

Bleib

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That's why I said "and has all the desired features". If you want balanced, you'll have to spend more money. But why would you?... o_O

I certainly wouldn't go balanced. After studying the subject a while ago and discussing it on the forums (even here), my conclusion is that balanced is a myth among audiophiles. It doesn't provide better audible performance. It just provides more power (which could be useful if your headphones were extremely difficult to drive and your amp wasn't powerful enough), and better signal integrity but only over HUGE distances (we're talking 50-100m before the difference becomes significant, those are distances that the average consumer will never experience at home) or in electrically challenging environments (again, not the average home).

As for volume control, again, that's up to everybody. I manage volume either digitally from my PC or via my amp's knob. Never via my DAC. To me a DAC doesn't need to do that. A DAC is just a DAC: a Digital/Analog Converter. Not an amplifier or an attenuator.

So, very few people really "need" to spend 300+ on a DAC. But again, everybody is free to do so in order to get the desired features.


Yes (I even recommended it to my brother some time ago), but only if you need the fancy features such as Bluetooth. Not for performance reasons. For me the "perfect DAC" (perfect for my own needs) is the E30. For somebody else it may be the DX3Pro+, or even the A50s.

Some may even want to spend more money and that's up to them. I would definitely spend 1000$ on an Okto dac8, but only if I needed an 8-channel DAC. :p
I would rather say for the headphone amp :) I've disabled BT on my own unit, didn't sound great anyway, but there can be a time I have some use for it.
 

MCH

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That's why I said "and has all the desired features". If you want balanced, you'll have to spend more money. But why would you?... o_O

I certainly wouldn't go balanced. After studying the subject a while ago and discussing it on the forums (even here), my conclusion is that balanced is a myth among audiophiles. It doesn't provide better audible performance. It just provides more power (which could be useful if your headphones were extremely difficult to drive and your amp wasn't powerful enough), and better signal integrity but only over HUGE distances (we're talking 50-100m before the difference becomes significant, those are distances that the average consumer will never experience at home) or in electrically challenging environments (again, not the average home).

As for volume control, again, that's up to everybody. I manage volume either digitally from my PC or via my amp's knob. Never via my DAC. To me a DAC doesn't need to do that. A DAC is just a DAC: a Digital/Analog Converter. Not an amplifier or an attenuator.

So, very few people really "need" to spend 300+ on a DAC. But again, everybody is free to do so in order to get the desired features.


Yes (I even recommended it to my brother some time ago), but only if you need the fancy features such as Bluetooth. Not for performance reasons. For me the "perfect DAC" (perfect for my own needs) is the E30. For somebody else it may be the DX3Pro+, or even the A50s.

Some may even want to spend more money and that's up to them. I would definitely spend 1000$ on an Okto dac8, but only if I needed an 8-channel DAC. :p
Well what someone needs or doesn't need is very relative and personal. One can also argue that for the 150 eur of the cheaper topping dac one can build a complete system (streamer dac and amp) that can be pretty transparent. I know because i also have one of those.

But if you are interested, i can tell you my case. I had ground loop issues in the past, and i was really fed up with that. When i decided to build a system from scratch, this was one of the main reasons. Then i read here and there that balanced interconnect is a safe prevention for that.... for 100-200 eur more? Take my money please!!

I bought a boxem hypex amp because it is pretty good, has signal sensing (i wanted to put it in a cabinet) runs pretty cold, uses less than 0.5 w when iddle (in a cabinet=most of the time on) and boxem is next door (Fred himself came to set it up). All together quite good value in my book. Ah, it has balanced outputs only. +1 more for balanced.

That i could still connect an unbalanced dac to this amp? Sure i could, but look, i really have no idea about those connections, cables, pin1, pin 3, ground all that sounds chinese to me, and on top of that it is going to provide half of the voltage than balanced (i do room correction and take some db off the signal, i am often at -15db in non party situations, so having a couple more volts on tap can be handy, not everyday but maybe one day)... So all the research time, find the right cables to save 100-200 eur and get half the voltage?? I can understand it can be worth for many people, but not for me. +1 more for balanced

Nevertheless, going balanced was not the only decision point. I wanted a simple system with the amp doing the volume control. I hate to have hiss or noise from the speakers, maybe because of the ground loop trauma, so what really made me decide for the dac i use (topping d30pro) was its SNR, together with the hypex provide at least 16 bits of dynamic range down to -20 -30 db (the volumes i normally listen to). Take my 100 euros and let me not to think never ever again about noise floor any day!

I paid 294 euros shipped for the d30pro in offer.

Balanced is a myth for audiofools? I don't know but to be honest, i couldn't care less, i would buy it tomorrow again. There are definitely things that cost more and make less a difference.

And if they would fix the spdif issue of the d30pro, i would pay extra 100 eur very happily.
 

Jose Hidalgo

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I have seen those too, $399 was the lowest priced Topping with balanced and unbalanced output….
Nope, it's $269 for a Topping DAC with balanced and unbalanced output (and 123dB SINAD if anybody cares :p).
Behold the E50: https://www.amazon.com/Topping-ES9068AS-PCM768kHz-Outputs-Decoder/dp/B09F31FNVP
Product info: https://www.tpdz.net/productinfo/697642.html

That is of course IF you absolutely need balanced. You haven't mentioned your specific needs, so we'll just have to assume that you're in the 0.01% of people that have a real use for it. :)

But if you are interested, i can tell you my case [...]
I'm verry sorry if somehow in my previous posts I made you think that I could be interested. Really, sorry about it.

Balanced is a myth for audiofools? I don't know [...]
If you don't know, then just remember we are on ASR here. That may help you nuance your subjective opinions. ;)
 

NiagaraPete

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At this price point I'd rather go to DX3Pro+ (if non-balanced is enough) and get quite many more features for just a little more. It's really the price / performance king at this point.
I chose the D30 Pro because I need balanced to active monitors.
 

antcollinet

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That's why I said "and has all the desired features". If you want balanced, you'll have to spend more money. But why would you?... o_O

I certainly wouldn't go balanced. After studying the subject a while ago and discussing it on the forums (even here), my conclusion is that balanced is a myth among audiophiles. It doesn't provide better audible performance. It just provides more power (which could be useful if your headphones were extremely difficult to drive and your amp wasn't powerful enough), and better signal integrity but only over HUGE distances (we're talking 50-100m before the difference becomes significant, those are distances that the average consumer will never experience at home) or in electrically challenging environments (again, not the average home).

If your amp needs more than two volts to drive it to full power, you have two choices. Balanced Dac, or preamp between dac and amp.

And the ground loop problem can occur over quite short distances. In particular, people with PC to Dac to powered speaker are frequently getting problems with ground loop noise on unbalanced connections to the powered speakers, including subs (that are necessarily some distance from the source, and often plugged into a different circuit. Distance can be just a few meters - certainly nothing like the 50+ you suggest. I think there is a post every week or so with someone trying to solve that problem. Here is the most recent I'm aware of - from less than a week ago.


I get ground loop noise if I drive my unbalanced amp that is just 10ft of cable from the PC, but in different mains socket from the PC. Solved with optical connection to amp. My next dac will be balanced for just this reason (in fact it will be the balanced version of the mini DSP flex.)
 
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Jose Hidalgo

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If your amp needs more than two volts to drive it to full power, you have two choices. Balanced Dac, or preamp between dac and amp.
Yes, that's basically what I said: a small number of headphones may require balanced for power purposes. Either because they're really power hungry, and/or because the amp isn't powerful enough. In that case, instead of a preamp I would rather buy a bigger amp.

And the ground loop problem can occur over quite short distances.
Yes, it can. Doesn't mean that it will.
Again, that may happen in some particular cases, for a small number of people. Most people will hardly if ever experience ground loop problems.

The truth is that the vast majority of people will never need a balanced DAC/amp. Yet some of them will voluntarily spend more money on a balanced DAC/amp "just because potatoes". I don't care, it's their money, as long as they don't believe that balanced will give any audible audio performance improvements. :)
 

antcollinet

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Yes, that's basically what I said: a small number of headphones may require balanced for power purposes. Either because they're really power hungry, and/or because the amp isn't powerful enough. In that case, instead of a preamp I would rather buy a bigger amp.


Yes, it can. Doesn't mean that it will.
Again, that may happen in some particular cases, for a small number of people. Most people will hardly if ever experience ground loop problems.

The truth is that the vast majority of people will never need a balanced DAC/amp. Yet some of them will voluntarily spend more money on a balanced DAC/amp "just because potatoes". I don't care, it's their money, as long as they don't believe that balanced will give any audible audio performance improvements. :)
Id say a majority of people with powered speakers will get ground loop with unbalanced connections
 
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