TOPPING D90 III Sabre DAC Review

[dtaylo1066]

Just that there's a tangible benefit/difference to having a Corvette vs a Honda Civic, whereas there is no practical discernible difference between good measuring DACS beyond connectivity/aesthetic/(maybe interface & ease of use). Although I'm really not a fan of analogies & car analogies.

To many there is no tangible benefit. Objectively one can only drive the speed limit, so the Covette's engine size and speed are of no practical use, it's efficiency in terms of MPG is far worse than the Civic's, and it rapid acceleration is never really required in real world driving. It can only hold two people vs. four or five, is less easy or comfortable to get in and out of, and costs far more to insure and maintain, and is impractical for many daily tasks due its limited internal space.

Analogies are never perfect. As a retired consumer products company manager, just trying to make the point on why companies produce high-end models.

If one believe 100% in DAC transparency at say a 100 SINAD level, than there is no need, benefit or justification to purchase a DAC for more than about $250, other than for features you may want. Audio SOTA essentially is useless if the superior measurements or metrics delivered cannot provide an audible difference.

But as consumers, and if we have disposable income, we like cool, high performance stuff.

 

[BrooklynNick]

I wouldn't blame ASR or Amir since most on the forum understand SINAD is not the end-all, be-all. Most lean toward preferring more features over a slight improvement of one metric.

My post was not really about blame, but I do think the SINAD race is an unintended consequence of this site's SINAD rankings. My point being that the rankings have outlived their usefulness and a pass/fail on SINAD would be better. AFAIK, no other site or magazine does SINAD rankings. Please keep in mind that the rankings are used by many who are not even forum members. The (mostly positive) influence on the industry is pretty easy to see in the advertising materials of Topping and others.

If you don't have a performant DAC and want to get one, there is value in knowing you bought the best there is.

If two DACs sound the same, what is the value of buying the one that measures "best"? For most consumers, there will be a strong expectation that "the best there is" will sound better than any other DACs.

Reading about measuring and ranking DACs is endlessly interesting to me personally, but is it the best way to present these DACs for consumers? I think ASR should still publish the same measurements, but should then just give an ASR seal of approval to all transparent DACs and not rank them.

 

[dtaylo1066]

I'll guess PEQ will be widely available when it is built into OEM DAC chips.

It will be widely available when enough consumers want and demand it. We are not close to being there yet, but we're getting closer, and doing so in an accelerated way. For those of us on ASR who are total audio geeks its seems a no-brainer feature for DACS. Not so for other listeners...yet.

I think WiiM is updating and expanding EQ options on their new products or firmware. Kind of shows you how a few folks like MiniDSP or WiiM have gotten out ahead of the curve, which is traditionally the role of high-end products, such as the new Topping DAC, and traditionally has not been the role of lower cost brands like WiiM. The new economics of audio and inexpensive but powerful chips enable some past marketing and sales maxims to be turned on their heads.

I would posit that the acceleration of EQ will be led by headphone/headphone amp companies who begin to market and push hard its merits. More folks on HP than ever before, give them a new and useful toy to better enjoy their listening world, and then it becomes a must have feature.

Even Chord saw this coming with its Mojo2 and went there, as have a number of DAP makers. You want to accelerate the change, push awareness of Amir's optimal HP EQ settings to the manufacturers. Awareness: build it and they will come.

 

[AudioSceptic]

400 is a good drop in terms of percentage considering their original price. Not exactly giving away but not retaining much value either

How much audio gear of any kind is worth more than ½ to ⅔ of its new price once it's 2nd hand, regardless of how recent it is?

 

[dogmamann]

How much audio gear of any kind is worth more than ½ to ⅔ of its new price once it's 2nd hand, regardless of how recent it is?

Some gear retains value, if bought towards their phase out. For example the last prices I know at stores for kef R series was like this . R3-1000 euros a pair; R7-1800 euros a pair. Now they are phased out, check out their used prices for the pairs which are out of warranty. Those who bought them for those discounted prices can sell it back at the bought prices even after 2 years. Also positive press on certain gear will keep their value. Kef always retains value as it’s always sought out and praised endlessly here.

 

[SorenTyson]

The way I understand the comments so far:

So, this might be the best measuring DAC out there, but why doesn’t it have the features of an AVR and a 49 dollar price tag

 

[Robbo99999]

Wow, I did not expect such amounts of negativity here. When did everyone suddenly get bored?

Granted, another dB of SINAD won't make as much of a difference as PEQ or any other feature, but at least it performs as advertised and sets a standard (along with SMSL) for pure conversion tasks.

I think we just have to resign ourselves to Topping DAC reviews (& generally all DAC reviews) being boring until they start releasing products with more features rather than incremental SINAD increases that don't matter anymore. Still value in them being tested though just to hold the manufacturers accountable and so folks can make sure that they're buying a transparent DAC, so it's useful, just not interesting. DAC reviews still garner a lot of views though, I think people understand them well, so enjoy putting their 2 cents in!

 

[Robbo99999]

To many there is no tangible benefit. Objectively one can only drive the speed limit, so the Covette's engine size and speed are of no practical use, it's efficiency in terms of MPG is far worse than the Civic's, and it rapid acceleration is never really required in real world driving. It can only hold two people vs. four or five, is less easy or comfortable to get in and out of, and costs far more to insure and maintain, and is impractical for many daily tasks due its limited internal space.

Analogies are never perfect. As a retired consumer products company manager, just trying to make the point on why companies produce high-end models.

If one believe 100% in DAC transparency at say a 100 SINAD level, than there is no need, benefit or justification to purchase a DAC for more than about $250, other than for features you may want. Audio SOTA essentially is useless if the superior measurements or metrics delivered cannot provide an audible difference.

But as consumers, and if we have disposable income, we like cool, high performance stuff.

Ha, I can't let myself get sucked in further to the intricacies of debating car analogies, but I've "test driven" a few high performance cars and it's nothing like a Honda Civic experience even within legal speeds so there's no passing semblance to differences between DACS with incremental SINAD differences. Any comparison to this being Toppings high end offering is just traded on marketing (to the gullible) rather than actual solid value or noticeable difference - I suppose this DAC has a few more connections than some others and it's balanced, but there's still far better priced offerings for very good measuring balanced DACS (even from Topping themselves).

EDIT: I should say that Topping have had a good effect on the market when combined with the testing done by Amir here on ASR, so I can't knock them as a company, just I wouldn't stand behind this particular product re it's pricing & fact it's "nothing new".

 

[dtaylo1066]

Ha, I can't let myself get sucked in further to the intricacies of debating car analogies, but I've "test driven" a few high performance cars and it's nothing like a Honda Civic experience even within legal speeds so there's no passing semblance to differences between DACS with incremental SINAD differences. Any comparison to this being Toppings high end offering is just traded on marketing (to the gullible) rather than actual solid value or noticeable difference - I suppose this DAC has a few more connections than some others and it's balanced, but there's still far better priced offerings for very good measuring balanced DACS (even from Topping themselves).

I basically agree with you and there is no need to further debate. I was making a marketing point, not one on metrics or performance. My endpoint, as I think is yours, is thus: In DACs, the basic audio digital to analog conversion function of a Civic priced DAC is now equal to that of a Corvette priced model.

Other than feature set, aesthetics, and warranty there is nothing to really differentiate.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I think we've been past that point for a while. IIRC Amir uses 116 dB SINAD as the human limit but I don't know where that comes from. Is there any evidence that anyone can perceive better than, say, 100 dB, in real world conditions. Factor in other limitations, especially transducers (speakers, phones), and is even that more than anyone needs?

This is the only info I know about.

Thread 'Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

The figure is very very very much on the safe side and also allows for a margin assuming subsequent amplification of 20 to 30dB from a power amp. And it seems that it is more derived from logic and assumptions but by hard field studies. I might be wrong though as the above is all I know.

But best to continue in the above thread.

 

[Arnas]

Dont understand people here... You dont see people complaining when rich folk drive ferrari over tesla or toyota, i dont hear much complain when people buy super expensive watch! buy cheap watch it makes no difference!...
For people with bigger pockets everything matters! You satisfied with 200 dac? then be happy!
Jesus Christ.

 

[Purité Audio]

Dont understand people here... You dont see people complaining when rich folk drive ferrari over tesla or toyota, i dont hear much complain when people buy super expensive watch! buy cheap watch it makes no difference!...
For people with bigger pockets everything matters! You satisfied with 200 dac? then be happy!
Jesus Christ.

One can buy the most expensive dac currently available no one has a problem with that, just don’t believe that the expense is commensurate with performance.
Keith

 

[BrooklynNick]

The way I understand the comments so far:

So, this might be the best measuring DAC out there, but why doesn’t it have the features of an AVR and a 49 dollar price tag

Topping is selling this DAC based on it measuring (slightly) better than previous models and having a "better" chip set. Given that this Topping DAC and the previous Topping DACs will sound exactly the same, I think people are reacting to that marketing. Plus, Topping raised the price vs the previous generation and there is concern that this DAC is not competitive in terms of features with RME and others in this price range. All of that seems like reasonable criticism to me. I don't see anyone saying that D90 III should be $49, but it makes sense to compare it to the much less expansive Topping DAC models (that will sound identical) and ask if the price difference is worthwhile. If we accept that the Topping D10S at $109 will sound the same as the Topping D90 III at $899, how can not discuss value?

 

[DLS79]

Dont understand people here... You dont see people complaining when rich folk drive ferrari over tesla or toyota, i dont hear much complain when people buy super expensive watch! buy cheap watch it makes no difference!...
For people with bigger pockets everything matters! You satisfied with 200 dac? then be happy!
Jesus Christ.

In my opinion what we have seen a lot of over the last year or two is entitled consumerism!

I want company ABC, to release a devise with LMNOP features, and cost XYZ.........

When that doesn't happen, instead of posting constructive criticism, we get childish tirades, and in some cases thinly veiled xenophobic references.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Dont understand people here... You dont see people complaining when rich folk drive ferrari over tesla or toyota, i dont hear much complain when people buy super expensive watch! buy cheap watch it makes no difference!...
For people with bigger pockets everything matters! You satisfied with 200 dac? then be happy!
Jesus Christ.

I don't think Christ would've been a fan of this DAC or Ferraris for similar reasons.

In my opinion what we have seen a lot of over the last year or two is entitled consumerism!

I want company ABC, to release a devise with LMNOP features, and cost XYZ.........

When that doesn't happen, instead of posting constructive criticism, we get childish tirades, and in some cases thinly veiled xenophobic references.

I see nothing wrong with pointing out that this DAC doesn't truly offer anything over their own lower priced models. On the contrary, it's a very important thing to point out.

- Edit: This is coming from someone who has a DAC like this (the SMSL counterpart).

 

[Arnas]

One can buy the most expensive dac currently available no one has a problem with that, just don’t believe that the expense is commensurate with performance.
Keith

Its not only about performance only for many folks... Design, fit and finnish, better parts... MANY people pay extra for that.
Manufacturers would release dacs only up to 500 otherwhise if no one buys more expensive stuff.

 

[oceansize]

I don't think Christ would've been a fan of this DAC or Ferraris for similar reasons.



I see nothing wrong with pointing out that this DAC doesn't truly offer anything over their own lower priced models. On the contrary, it's a very important thing to point out.

Yes, this. I mean, it's a moderately priced consumer electronics item competing with lots of other affordable components, not a luxury money-no-object item (try looking at dCS stuff).

 

[Arnas]

In my opinion what we have seen a lot of over the last year or two is entitled consumerism!

I want company ABC, to release a devise with LMNOP features, and cost XYZ.........

When that doesn't happen, instead of posting constructive criticism, we get childish tirades, and in some cases thinly veiled xenophobic references.

narcissistic behavior in a nutshell. Its about me me for many folks.
These Chinese Companies offer a lot more to the table than most Western companies already, 5 more years and they give stuff like Rme for folks no doubt.

 

[Sokel]

Its not only about performance only for many folks... Design, fit and finnish, better parts... MANY people pay extra for that.
Manufacturers release dacs only up to 500 if no one buys more expensive stuff.

Yep,bur starting at this price point for the exact above reasons one expects bigger size stuff.
Ok,not full size,but...
Like Okto for example.

 

[oscar_dziki]

Give us D90 and A90 in one case for 1400$ please.