TOPPING D90 III Sabre DAC Review

[VQR]

Amir's measurements have done a great favor for consumers and for the manufacturers who make well engineered DACs. This site provides invaluable education. It has literally changed the industry for the better.

However, having consumers and manufactures who now chase SINAD is also largely due to this website. IMO, the SINAD rankings should be retired and the measurements should now simply say that the SINAD passes (ie is transparent) or fails. A lot of consumers seem to either not understand or not fully believe that these DACs are transparent. As a result, we see more products like the this one, which chases SINAD* rather than providing meaningful upgrades.

* See Topping's product page. They tout the SNR/SINAD/THD+N many times. They also make claims about the DAC chip. Almost no one should care about the chip, but they do because they don't fully believe that these DACs are transparent.

I wouldn't blame ASR or Amir since most on the forum understand SINAD is not the end-all, be-all. Most lean toward preferring more features over a slight improvement of one metric.

We have reached a point where technical transparency is both more affordable and widespread. DAC's, preamps, and headphone amps can be SOTA for fractions of what they cost years ago. Amplifiers, with the advent of high power and low distortion class D modules, can provide ample power from a few hundred to around a grand.

We see companies like Wiim attempting streamer + DAC + amp combos with decent specs and features. How many streamers or DAC's have HDMI, let alone HDMI ARC, for ~$350? While fhe Wim combo is not SOTA, it is a high value product for people who want low noise, simple form factor, and modest power. I'd hope for Topping and other companies to follow suit by creating similar and better integrated products, as that would be far more useful than a nearly $1000 SINAD chaser.

 

[amirm]

I 100% with you that it is difficult to do. And possibly impossible to do. It was just an idea on a goal, not the implementation.

I don't know when I will have the time but I have thought about building hardware to stress test audio products. It won't catch all or many issues but could be more useful than doing nothing.

 

[amirm]

Is it Possible for Audio Equipment Manufacturers to Sacrifice Overall Quality in Their Quest for Improved SINAD?

No. One has nothing to do with the other. Indeed, you tend to want to use quality parts to get the best performance.

And don't look at that nonsense video. The last people you want to listen to are people who measure only to badmouth measurements and run with wild subjective reviews...

 

[amirm]

Folks, there is a large market out there for people looking to purchase a DAC. Those of you who have bought ASR recommended products are not the bulk of the market.

There are also markets where freshness is everything, requiring a new product every six months or even sooner.

If you don't have a performant DAC and want to get one, there is value in knowing you bought the best there is.

 

[CleanSound]

Really?

"Overall, really fun speaker. Not perfect tonality but what it does in the soundstage is enough to keep me pushing ahead with further EQ options which this speaker will take well to given its good directivity index. If you are interested I definitely recommend giving it a shot."

Linkwitz LXmini Speaker Review

Linkwitz LXmini Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

When he said that as an one-liner, it came across as a pity statement to me. I encourage everyone to watch the video in its entirety and the sense of pure disappointment came across to me loud and clear to me.

 

[dzerig]

Although usually that sort don't care about SINAD or know what it is, and instead they buy expensive, cool looking, well marketed DACs for their looks+price+reputation since typically they have decades without any evolution.

Really? You must know some of these people then? Because most people I know that know what a dac is for, know about measurements.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Again great performance from Topping but personally I don't see anything that would justify the extra $500.
The performance race is done and won, personally I can't wait for manufacturers like Topping to focus more on design and features and try to differentiate in that way instead of the 0.1 extra SINAD.

I think that’s what Topping is doing with the D70Pro series—good features, great UI, great cosmetics, lower price. My guess is that the D90 series purpose in the lineup is to push the measured state of the art, only.

 

[amirm]

Really? You must know some of these people then? Because most people I know that know what a dac is for, know about measurements.

I know a ton of high-end audiophiles who detest measurements of anything audio, DACs included. They don't understand them either.

 

[Cyberstasz]

SOTA perf )
Dont get me wrong but the SMSL D6s reaches 123.5db Sinad with 5v (max volume) with XLR outs @ $200 )))

I purchased it shortly after Amir's review for $169! And then coupled it with the Midgard. Very nice!

 

[DLS79]

Actually, I have an RPi running Volumio into a Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital, which works very well. The music is on a NAS, accessible to any device in the house. I doubt that I would hear any difference with something SOTA but there is always that lingering doubt. *If* I wanted to spend a lot more, then the RME is an obvious replacement for the Pro-Ject. I can't see any need for another computer.

My only real issue with Pis are the lack of quality cases that are good looking.

you can get cheap aluminum cases that work well at protecting the pi and keeping it cool. However they don't look that great, have poor fit and finish, or incorporate plastic components in weird ways.

nice cases exist but some of them cost more than the pi does.

Raspberry Pi 4 Aluminum Case - Mechatronics Art

This aluminum case for Raspberry Pi 4 from Mechatronics Art acts as a passive heat sink that improves the single board computer performances.

www.mechatronicsart.com

Raspberry Pi Case

Raspberry Pi 3, 3B+, and 4 cases.

desalvoinc.com

 

[dtaylo1066]

Part of a reason a company will produce a high-cost, SOTA product, is to underscore their product, design and production credentials. Chevy builds a mid-engine Corvette to prove it has the chops to produce a SOTA car. If Chevy can do that, a consumer may want to deduce that their mid-price offering must only benefit from all the design knowledge and expertise they have in creating and showing off their SOTA product, even though only a few consumers will buy a Corvette, and even if only a few are willing to pay for it. The Corvette is a great car, but it is not a practical car, and does not possess the most of the features that most buyers want in a car. It is a bold and widely received product statement even though only a narrow consumer base will consider purchasing it.

We have come to expect Topping to be a company that constantly churns out low and mid-priced DACs of high quality and value, getting incrementally better with each iteration, and with lots of bang-for-the-buck models. Now that they begin to push out much higher price, higher performing products, people here seem to complain. Incremental improvements cost money to produce, even when the delta is small. And high-end products have far better margins than economy priced models.

It's up to you weather you want a Honda Civic or an Acura TLX. You will not get the latter for the price of the former.

 

[yodog]

View attachment 342776

Is this out? Where to purchase?

 

[Doobrey]

Seems like it’s just a fight between smsl and topping these days.

 

[Rhamnetin]

No os entiendo amigos, Topping acaba de sacar posiblemente el mejor DAC del mundo, y vosotros lo único que hacéis es criticar, encima si lo tenéis, jaja, el mundo está patas arriba, y criticáis por tonterías. , eq, carcasa nueva... ¿tienes buenos parlantes de gama alta? una habitación tratada? ¿Cableado caro? Si no, quédate con los DAC de 100 dólares, porque tener el d90 3 sin tener nada de eso es como comprar un Ferrari sin ruedas y no poder conducirlo. Compré el d90se hace dos años, y tengo todo mi equipo de alta gama, te aseguro que suena maravilloso, es como tener a toda la banda de Bob Marley en mi estudio. No sé si es wl sinad, thd+n, dyn range... pero lo que te puedo asegurar es que topping está haciendo un trabajo brutal, ofreciendo dacs que posiblemente sean los mejores dacs del mundo, superando las cualidades de DACs que cuestan un ojo de la cara. El topping no es caro, es un regalo para todos nosotros.

It is good for people to point out a lack of innovation, and expect more at this price point. I think we're all grateful for what Topping and SMSL have done in general for the industry, and continue to do. But in any system, the D90 III isn't going to sound any different than an E30 II when using the same filter setting (like the results in this test), whereas if this $900 DAC had something like a room correction solution, that would make a big difference.

 

[dogmamann]

different inputs and outputs.

https://nwzimg.wezhan.net/contents/sitefiles3604/18020413/images/6236593.jpg

https://nwzimg.wezhan.net/contents/sitefiles3604/18020413/images/7686180.jpg

Edit: power brick vs internal psu can also be important to some people.

It’s a DAC at the end of the day, adding few more inputs and outputs costs way more than the actual engineered part itself. Not justifiable.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

This is my study, here if the equipment can be tested, it goes beyond the specifications of a paper. I don't listen to music here, I feel it and live it. It's difficult to explain, you would have to live it here. But I told you, I am an expert and I know what I'm talking about.View attachment 343250

… and a picture and pretty stories and claim of expertise prove what?

People still claiming the earth is flat. If it is, we want proof.

 

[amirm]

Let's dial down the emotions please....

 

[DLS79]

It’s a DAC at the end of the day, adding few more inputs and outputs costs way more than the actual engineered part itself. Not justifiable.

When you increase the complexity of a devise, the costs of the devise doesn't scale linerally.

1. additional components means more overhead for the company
2. additional components require more storage space at the factory/warehouse
3. additional components means greater chances of logistical issues
4. additional components require a bigger enclosure that's costs more and requires more space to store at the factory/warehouse
5. additional components mean it will take longer to assemble and perform QA on the devise.
6. The larger devise will increase the cost of packaging, and again more packaging requires more space to store at the factory/warehouse
7. etc etc

Not to mention making the power supply internal adds engineering complications that need to be addressed.

1. EMI needs to be addressed by either using a very high quality supply, and/or various forms of shielding
2. the additional heat generated by the power supply needs to be handled.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You are wrong my friend, I am an expert in testing high-end equipment, I have a music production studio in which I spent more than $100,000, I have tested dacs from several brands, I even have an Apogee Symphony desktop, which costs $1600, It has a 9028 pro chip, and the d90se sounds much better than this one and others that I have tried. I have my control room acoustically conditioned and calibrated with a frequency response of +-3 db throughout the frequency range, and I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference. Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend. These dacs are not for everyone, they are for people who have very high-end equipment. I have it and I can confirm that there is a big difference. In case you wanted to know, you can ask me whatever you want, I am at your disposal. greetings from Spain.

None of this would hold up to properly controlled and level matched listening test. See here, a very educational video by Amir.

But feel free to provide some actual facts to the contrary (no anecdotes please).

 

[DrCWO]

That said, my current upgrade criteria doesn't include improved SINAD (unless we are talking about HT AVRs/AVPs). At this point, I'm way more interested in things like DSP processing (support for Dirac), multi-channel sub cross over support, or being able to combine boxes (Roon support). For my current requirements, companies like MiniDSP are doing much more interesting things than Topping.

Take a look at rooExtend in combination with ADI-2/4 Pro
Two DACs in a box enough for a 2x2 system using Roon convolver as XO.