Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

[JohnYang1997]

I've read some of your comments on balancing input and output, so is D90 + L30 the best choice?

Do you need the power? If no L30.

 

[ClicketEKlack]

When I've had the chance to sample all formats, where there are high res versions as well as red book, I usually find that I like the high res version better. But more often than not that can be easily attributed to the mastering of a version.

I don't make any claims to being a golden ear, especially not at my age. I'm just really glad that we have so many versions to choose from. And I'm also glad that I can also sample the MQA files when they're available.

Amen. After hearing all the vitriol, I still think MQA tracks sound clearer and more detailed when I A/B them with CD and HiFi. Maybe it's a placebo. So are probably all of the cable and power supply-based SQ improvements. I don't really care. It's great to have the choice.

 

[hmscott]

@JohnYang1997 - This USB Converter offers USB to Coax, AES, Optical, I2S - which would you choose to connect to the D90 / D90 MQA ?

Singxer SU-2 DSD1024 USB Digital Interface Femtosecond Clock Interface - $429
https://hifigo.com/products/singxer...second-clock-interface?variant=31718715162673

Spoiler: SU-2 Product Introduction

"SU-2 is a new architecture USB interface developed by us to replace the original SU-1; PCM sampling rate supports up to PCM 768K, and DSD supports up to DSD1024. Using a large FPGA as the core of the processing processing, we decentralized some of the FPGA algorithm technology of the flagship interface SU-6 to the SU-2; its positioning in the mid-to-high-end interface mainly uses the following three unique technologies:

1. Full isolation technology (ground isolation), using 150Mbps full isolation chip, can completely isolate the interference from the PC;
2. Source synchronization technology and FPGA shaping technology, reshape the I2S signal after isolation; thus eliminating the additive jitter brought by the isolation chip;
3. Self-developed clock system, using ACCUSILICON high-performance crystal oscillator, low phase noise, low jitter; you can also choose external 10Mhz clock, support various atomic clocks, constant temperature crystal, GPDSO input. "

Spoiler: I2S compatibility details

I2S interface uses HDMI socket output:
1. 3.3V LVDS differential signal;
2. DSD ON signal, 5V power supply (small current), CPLD has been processed inside the MUTE signal, and there is no need to output the MUTE signal;
3. The DSD ON signal can be defined by itself. The DSD ON signal can be arbitrarily output to the PIN 13, 14, 15, 16 pins of the socket.
Flexible I2S and clock output configuration:
1. Switches 1-4 correspond to the PIN13-16 pins of the HDMI socket. Pull to the ON position, it means that the HDMI PIN has the function of DSD_ON.

2. Switches 5 and 6 are the modes that configure the clock output:
When the switch 5 is OFF, the clock outputs MCLK, and when it is ON, the clock outputs WCK.
Switch 6 configures the frequency of MCLK, which is 22.5792M / 24.576M when OFF, and 45.1584M / 49.152M when ON;
The configuration of switch 6 is valid for CLK OUT, RJ45-I2S, and HDMI-I2S.

3. Switch 7 can set the left and right channels in DSD mode in I2S signal separately.

4. Switch 8 can set the BCLK line sequence in the I2S signal; when OFF, PIN4 is BCLK + and PIN6 is BCLK-;

5. Switch 9 can set the line sequence of LRCLK in I2S signal; when OFF, PIN7 is LRCLK + and PIN9 is LRCLK-;

6. Switch 10 can set the line sequence of DATA in I2S signal; when OFF, PIN1 is DATA + and PIN3 is DATA-;

The SU-2 can be configured via SW switches to suit different I2S standards.

It is configurable, but an actual I2S compatibility test with a D90 / D90 MQA would be nice, considering it's non-returnable if it's not compatible:

"However, as far as we know, HDMI-I2S is different for every manufacturer in the world. For most manufacturers, HDMI-I2S is a proprietary protocol of the manufacturer. Therefore, I'm sorry, SU-2 cannot adapt to all HDMI-I2S machines, so we cannot accept returns due to incompatible I2S interfaces."

Also there is a Kitsume version that is $hundred$ more for what appears to be essentially the same device:

KTE SU-2 : Kitsune Tuned Edition – DSD1024 USB Digital Interface Femto second clock Interface – 3.2uV/2.0uV output noise, 125db PSRR
https://kitsunehifi.com/product/ktesu2/

An upscale model SU-6 for $250 more is also available:

Singxer SU-6 USB Digital Interface XMOS XU208 CPLD Femtosecond
https://hifigo.com/products/singxer-su-6-usb-digital-interface-xmos-xu208-cpld-femtosecond

Spoiler: SU-6 Product Introduction

"The SU-6 digital interface is a new generation of high-performance USB digital audio interface. It uses XMOS' latest xCORE-200 series and Xilinx's high-performance large-scale PGA chip. The SU-6 is a digital interface using a thermostat-level clock system. Crystek's two CCHD-957 femtosecond crystal oscillators provide a solid foundation for the superior audio signal quality of the SU-6 output. The SU-6 digital interface uses a standard USB2.0 input interface, while the SU-6 has a rich output interface, including S/PDI for fiber/coaxial RCA and BNC outputs, AES/EBU for XLR balanced output, RJ45 and HDMI interfaces. Output I2S (including DSD ON signal), clock output supports MCLK main clock and WCLK word clock. The power system design was optimized and the audio section was powered by a 7.5F (7.5 million uf) supercapacitor.

SU-6 is newly developed USB interface, which is positioned at the high-end interface. Compared with previous products, we mainly use the following four new self-developed technologies:

1, built-in CPLD pre-shaping technology, FPGA-based source synchronization technology re-shaping the isolated I2S signal, thus eliminating the additive jitter caused by the isolation chip.

2, the newly designed FPGA algorithm, built-in FIFO buffers the data and then outputs, SPDIF output is re-encoded by FPGA, so that the coaxial output can support PCM 384K and DSD DOP128 at the highest.

3, using CRYSTEK's CCHD-957 high-performance femtosecond crystal oscillator, with the self-developed constant temperature system and ultra-low noise super capacitor power supply system, further improve the short-stability performance of the clock.

4. Original single clock system, all circuits of the whole machine adopt synchronous clock design, in which USB clock is synthesized by PLL derived from femtosecond clock. "

What do you think @JohnYang1997 ?

 

[Veri]

Pfft. It's just a digital converter. Best is to use USB on D90. Interfacing it with another device just to bypass is silly if you still connect the SU-2 over USB. What exactly did you achieve, then?

I2S is the worst standardised format out there for music. Don't buy a Singxer just for I2S. It's not like it'll sound different

 

[hmscott]

Pfft. It's just a digital converter. Best is to use USB on D90. Interfacing it with another device just to bypass is silly if you still connect the SU-2 over USB. What exactly did you achieve, then?

I2S is the worst standardised format out there for music. Don't buy a Singxer just for I2S. It's not like it'll sound different

No, USB is not always *best* to use, not if the source lays a barrage of noise induced on the USB power and data lines.

@JohnYang1997 suggested several times to use an intermediate converter from USB to Optical (for example) to remove USB borne noise - not only on power lines but on data lines I would assume. This converter offers more options as outputs, and I2S if compatible would be the highest throughput output from that USB converter.

I'm not looking for "better" bits I'm looking for "cleaner" input to the D90 MQA.

I'm also upgrading my motherboard for Ryzen 5000 CPU upgrade - so I will need to wait to see how "noisy" that new motherboard USB ports present, but I had previously been looking at the Element H PCIE USB interface to avoid the motherboard (and GPU induced) USB output noise:

Matrix element H USB 3.0 Interface expansion Card Crystek femtosecond Clock
https://hifigo.com/products/matrix-...face-expansion-card-crystek-femtosecond-clock

Pretty much all PC USB outputs have noise induced from the electronics inside, so this is a universal problem - I would love to know if there are any exceptions, better motherboards, PCIE USB cards, or?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Use such devices only if you encounter noise problem. It won't improve sound quality when you don't encounter any issue.

 

[hmscott]

Use such devices only if you encounter noise problem. It won't improve sound quality when you don't encounter any issue.

Please don't let @Veri interfere with our discussion, or derail my questions.

My questions as posted are based on your stated suggestions to reduce USB borne noise made previously.

Please re-read my post(s) - which output from the SU-2 / SU-6 would you use to interconnect with the D90 / D90 MQA?

Which USB converters have you tried with the D90 / D90 MQA - which interfaces did you use? - how did they work to what effects?, optical only?

Thank you

 

[JohnYang1997]

Please don't let @Veri interfere with our discussion, or derail my questions.

My questions as posted are based on your stated suggestions to reduce USB borne noise made previously.

Please re-read my post(s) - which output from the SU-2 / SU-6 would you use to interconnect with the D90 / D90 MQA?

Which converters have you tried - which interfaces, optical only?

Thank you

I don't know. I didn't look into singxer's products. But I think it's isolated on the usb end. So all outputs are fine.

 

[hmscott]

I don't know. I didn't look into singxer's products. But I think it's isolated on the usb end. So all outputs are fine.

Thank you, I had hoped you had used some other converters you could suggest too. I've seen quite a few, but noticed the Singxer version is much less expensive than the Kitsune "tuned" version, which from the open top looks the same - except for a "different" USB connector.

There is still the consideration of the I2S "compatibility" with the D90 / D90 MQA which is why I included the link and spoiler with text concerning that to see how the D90's might be compatible. If you get a chance to check out the notes please let us know what you think, will it be compatible with the D90's?

I do still get the GPU noise faintly under certain setup parameters - rare but it's there. So I'm still working to find a solution - hopefully one that isn't $400-$700+ to solve.

I see ifi has some USB isolation and power noise mitigations built into their DAC's, perhaps something to consider for a future Topping DAC feature set?

 

[Veri]

I see ifi has some USB / Power noise mitigations built into their DAC's, perhaps something to consider for a future Topping DAC feature set?

Let me wholly derail your little discussion. Do you want to keep burning/spending money? Because that's what really sounds like, searching for justification.

 

[192kbps]

I don't know. I didn't look into singxer's products. But I think it's isolated on the usb end. So all outputs are fine.

Can we have a 120dB unbalanced input DAC in the future?

 

[hmscott]

Can we have a 120dB unbalanced input DAC in the future?

It's a common problem: From "Easiest way to isolate the DAC from the noisy PC?"

I read all your replies, Are these the solutions to noise?

Toslink/XLR Input/USB Isolator/Linear Power/Wall Outlet/Short RCA cable/Ferrite Core

usb isolator

PC USB noise is a problem that's always been there, and as more and more people are hooking up a USB DAC to their PC and are experiencing it for the first time, they realize that they need a solution - and ask, why doesn't the DAC solve this problem for us?

That's why USB isolation and power noise reduction in the DAC is desired - it's much easier for the consumer if that solution is built into the DAC.

I was surprised to find I can't find / buy a data only USB cable which would remove the worst of the "noise" brought in to the DAC from the PC. The DATA lines also get induced noise as well from the PC electronics, and that needs to be removed too. All the other external solutions add too much cost, so we live with the "noise" leftover from our best efforts to reduce it.

All the DAC designers / builders need to solve this problem, and the first inexpensive solution integrated in to reasonably priced DAC's will reap the benefits.

PC Motherboard makers could also work to solve this USB "noise" problem. I'm hearing similar noise complaints from 3080 GPU owners on their x570 motherboards, so it doesn't seem like the PC makers are going to contribute to solving the USB noise problem any time soon.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

PC USB noise is a problem that's always been there, and as more and more people are hooking up a USB DAC to their PC and are experiencing it for the first time, they realize that they need a solution - and ask, why doesn't the DAC solve this problem for us?

I've used ferrite clip-on filters with success in the past when I've run into noise on USB and Firewire. Amazon has them.

 

[hmscott]

I've used ferrite clip-on filters with success in the past when I've run into noise on USB and Firewire. Amazon has them.

It helps but, it doesn't get rid of all of the GPU induced noise - and it doesn't get rid of all of the other induced noise generated inside the PC.

A "Tripp Lite" USB cable with ferrite cores at each end partially works for me. That along with new shielded RCA cables and shielded XLR cables got rid of 90% of the noise problems.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519/post-475832

I still get noise showing in the A90 at High Gain at 75% volume - which I am now using with Beyerdynamic DT990 / DT880 600 ohm headphones.

I hear the GPU noise at lower volumes on IEM's when the GPU compute kicks in too.

Adding the ferrite cores to the USB cable doesn't get rid of all of the noise. A more complete solution is needed.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Adding the ferrite cores to the USB cable doesn't get rid of all of the noise. A more complete solution is needed.

I have had computers which have a noise problem and ones which don't. My current one has no problems at all, even without filtering. In one instance when I replaced the Firewire PCIe board with another model, the noise disappeared. Its kind of the luck of the draw unfortunately.

 

[hmscott]

I have had computers which have a noise problem and ones which don't. My current one has no problems at all, even without filtering. In one instance when I replaced the Firewire PCIe board with another model, the noise disappeared. Its kind of the luck of the draw unfortunately.

The luck of the draw for "circuit designers" to be more specific

I wish the reviewers for PC motherboards would test for USB noise out of the motherboard USB ports for example, so we had some information on which designs performed with the least noise induced on the USB outputs.

Unfortunately I think as PC motherboard designs are today there is little to no isolation or consideration as to how noisy the USB ports are on a motherboard design.

It's also port specific. I've tried all of the motherboard USB ports to find the "quietest" port(s), but none of the USB ports are quiet enough on this motherboard.

PCIE power filtering is another beast to tame, that's why I thought of adding a USB card designed by an audiophile = a card that is designed for reduced USB noise. It can also use external power to remove the PC's noisy power input. $250.

For now I'm enjoying the "singing birdies" GPU compute noises that appear behind the Timpani from the back of the orchestra.

 

[ElNino]

For now I'm enjoying the "singing birdies" GPU compute noises that appear behind the Timpani from the back of the orchestra.

Do you still get those when using a balanced connection?

 

[hmscott]

Do you still get those when using a balanced connection?

I've reported previously that the XLR only connection from the D90 MQA to the A90 stops all of the audible noise interference - both USB and power induced.

Hang on, let me test it - I should remove the RCA cables from the D90 MQA / A90 and only have XLR connections and then start a compute job.

I started BOINC with a GPU job, yup there's the birdies - with music paused the GPU noises are faint, not audible with music running. Let me now remove the RCA cables and see what it's like with XLR only.

Yup, without the RCA cables connected, only using XLR cables to the A90, there aren't any GPU compute noises even at H Gain 100% volume.

The noise on the USB power and data lines still exists, the balanced XLR connection is stopping it from passing through to the A90 from the D90 MQA, but the D90 MQA still has the noisy signal from the PC coming in the USB input and that will be fed out the D90 MQA RCA outputs.

So I can't use the RCA output from the D90 MQA while PC GPU compute is running.

The XLR connection is a great Band-Aid to feed a clean signal out of the D90 MQA to the A90, but it doesn't solve the root cause or keep the PC USB borne noise from coming out of the D90 MQA RCA output.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Do you still get those when using a balanced connection?

I go farther in my setup, using an audio isolation transformer on the balanced outs of my DAC to the inputs of the preamp.

 

[ElNino]

Yup, without the RCA cables connected, only using XLR cables to the A90, there aren't any GPU compute noises even at H Gain 100% volume.

That's a great illustration of how valuable balanced connections can be.