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Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

hmscott

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That's great, I sure hope my new Supra 0.7m USB cable has the same effect on my USB noise. It's estimated to be delivered Monday, I'll report how it works next week after it arrives. :)
@Dclone ****Update: The GPU noise is back. => A quick note, the Supra 0.7m cable got rid of the GPU compute "birdies". Yes, I'm surprised too - more testing, of course.

And, yes, there are audible improvements as well. <== at least this is still true.

Thanks guys for the Supra USB cable recommendation! It was worth a try!

****Update: The GPU noise is back. After I swapped in the new Supra USB cable I had swapped between a couple of GPU jobs in progress and there wasn't any noise, but now new jobs (as jobs complete new ones are downloaded) have brought back the noise. The GPU noise is louder. I don't have any Ferrite Cores to clip on the Supra cable, but I'll bet that's what it needs. I'm going to pull the RCA cables to stop the GPU noise and keep running the Supra cable. I'll see if I can get some Ferrite Cores to add to the Supra cable. I'll also swap back in the Tripp Lite cable at some point with the Ferrite Cores built in and see if the GPU noise sound level drops in volume back to where it was.

Update: I swapped back the Tripp Lite USB cable with two Ferrite Cores in the build, and the GPU noise isn't as loud. It could be normal variance of the compute task so I'll have to check again later after I get snap on Ferrite Cores for the Supra cable and I can A/B the noise with / without the Ferrite Cores.
 
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Dclone

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A quick note, the Supra 0.7m cable got rid of the GPU compute "birdies". Yes, I'm surprised too - more testing, of course.

There is an interesting "burn-in" note too over about 4 hours burn-in, but I have to run right now - I'll amplify later.

And, yes, there are audible improvements as well.

Thanks guys for the Supra USB cable recommendation! :)
Very glad to hear! And yes, the cable do sound better after a couple of hours playing. Don’t Ask me why. Could also be so that Your ears are geting used to the new sound, maybe? Your 0,7 m Supra worked fine. My 5 m and 10 m works fine too. Good to now for anyone that have USB noise problem
 

hmscott

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Very glad to hear! And yes, the cable do sound better after a couple of hours playing. Don’t Ask me why. Could also be so that Your ears are geting used to the new sound, maybe? Your 0,7 m Supra worked fine. My 5 m and 10 m works fine too. Good to now for anyone that have USB noise problem
****Update: The GPU noise is back. Thanks, I'll keep running the Supra 0.7m USB cable and report more later. :)

****Update: The GPU noise is back. After I swapped in the new Supra USB cable I had swapped between a couple of GPU jobs in progress and there wasn't any noise, but now new jobs (as jobs complete new ones are downloaded) have brought back the noise. The GPU noise is louder. I don't have any Ferrite Cores to clip on the Supra cable, but I'll bet that's what it needs. I'm going to pull the RCA cables to stop the GPU noise and keep running the Supra cable. I'll see if I can get some Ferrite Cores to add to the Supra cable. I'll also swap back in the Tripp Lite cable at some point with the Ferrite Cores built in and see if the GPU noise sound level drops in volume back to where it was.

Update: I swapped back the Tripp Lite USB cable with two Ferrite Cores in the build, and the GPU noise isn't as loud. It could be normal variance of the compute task so I'll have to check again later after I get snap on Ferrite Cores for the Supra cable and I can A/B the noise with / without the Ferrite Cores.

In case anyone wants to try to replicate the GPU noises I am hearing - to hear your own GPU at work doing compute tasks - download BIONC and signup for the Einstein@Home project - enable your PC GPU(s) for work - From BOINC attach to the Einstein@Home project so that GPU tasks will download. It may take a while or a few project files to hear the noise, or you might hear the GPU noise right away. These new jobs I am getting now start the noise within about 30 seconds after starting the new job.
 
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hmscott

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Will this Supra cable get rid of my tinnitus as well?
No, at least not the Supra cable, the GPU noises have come back. Those chirpy sharp sounds with trailing gritty sounds are probably just the kind of sound triggers that could annoy someone with tinnitus.

You'd have to hear it to see if it triggered your tinnitus. o_O
 

Neto Rare

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****Update: The GPU noise is back. Thanks, I'll keep running the Supra 0.7m USB cable and report more later. :)

****Update: The GPU noise is back. After I swapped in the new Supra USB cable I had swapped between a couple of GPU jobs in progress and there wasn't any noise, but now new jobs (as jobs complete new ones are downloaded) have brought back the noise. The GPU noise is louder. I don't have any Ferrite Cores to clip on the Supra cable, but I'll bet that's what it needs. I'm going to pull the RCA cables to stop the GPU noise and keep running the Supra cable. I'll see if I can get some Ferrite Cores to add to the Supra cable. I'll also swap back in the Tripp Lite cable at some point with the Ferrite Cores built in and see if the USB sound drops in volume back to where it was.

How about trying out the PI2AES to bypass this usb cable nervosa and your noisy ass PC!
 

hmscott

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How about trying out the PI2AES to bypass this usb cable nervosa and your noisy ass PC!
That's a great idea, and I've considered setting up a RP4 computer for serving music, I just haven't gotten around to it. Streaming Tidal MQA isn't supported by anything I've seen - Roon on RP4 doesn't, does it? Also, I still need audio out of this PC for gaming, cinema, youtube, etc - the GPU birdies don't discriminate sources.

And, Raspberry Pi computers even without GPU birdies aren't immune to noise => https://www.google.com/search?q=raspberry+pi+audio+ground+loops

I would have solved this as I have done in the past and used the Optical out from the motherboard, but this particular motherboard doesn't include an optical out.

I may be changing my motherboard out sooner than I thought, the AKM chip factory went up in flames Oct 20th and I have to verify whether the motherboards I want use AKM parts, if so I better move quickly - I was going to wait till Feb / March 2021 before getting another motherboard (with optical).
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/post-15949254

I've been able to use work arounds - I've gotten pretty close to getting rid of all the noise - the birdies are the last of it.

I'd like to be able to find a full solution before swapping motherboards.
 
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Veri

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And, Raspberry Pi computers even without GPU birdies aren't immune to noise => https://www.google.com/search?q=raspberry+pi+audio+ground+loops
This is about plain RCA audio grounding noise, the PI2AES is for digital bnc/aes/... digital output which should be a very clean output free of noise.

I may be changing the motherboard out sooner than I thought, the AKM chip factory went up in flames and I think the x570 / x550's I've been looking at use AKM chips - I have to verify that, if so I better move quickly - I was going to wait till Feb / March 2021 before getting another motherboard (with optical).
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-discovery-thread.586909/post-15949254
These mobos are ALC-based, which feature an ESS Sabre chip.
 

hmscott

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This is about plain RCA audio grounding noise, the PI2AES is for digital bnc/aes/... digital output which should be a very clean output free of noise.
It's very nice, but if I can't use an RP4 to run my software or run the apps to stream my music then the RP4 "shield" (riser card) interface options don't matter. I haven't found a native MQA Tidal renderer for RP4. Room might do it, but I see complaints there isn't enough power to do it reliably. That may change with the next RP5.

Right now it would be better if I could get the PI2AES - PRO AUDIO SHIELD functionality on a PC PCIE card with Windows / Linux software.
PI2AES - PRO AUDIO SHIELD
http://www.pi2design.com/store/p19/PI2AES_-_PRO_AUDIO_SHIELD.html
1604224113021.png

PI2AES I2S Over RJ45 Adapter
http://www.pi2design.com/store/p22/PI2AES_I2S_Over_RJ45_Adapter.html
1604224313101.png
These mobos are ALC-based, which feature an ESS Sabre chip.
I've heard there are other chips that AKM supplies for PC motherboards, IDK which if any motherboards use AKM chips. I'll check with the motherboard maker(s)...

AKM Factory Fire Could Affect Supply Of A to D And D to A Convertors For At Least 12 Months
https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pr...of-a-to-d-and-d-to-a-convertors-for-12-months

AKM Factory Fire—A Pro-Audio Industry Disaster
https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/business/akm-factory-fire-shakes-up-pro-audio-industry
 
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Neto Rare

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That's a great idea, and I've considered setting up a RP4 computer for serving music, I just haven't gotten around to it. Streaming Tidal MQA isn't supported by anything I've seen - Roon on RP4 doesn't, does it? Also, I still need audio out of this PC for gaming, cinema, youtube, etc - the GPU birdies don't discriminate sources.

Nah, I don't believe there's any support to stream the cursed MQA via Roon>RP4.
 

Neto Rare

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I actually switched back to the standard D90 from D90 MQA due my VST/DSP plugins being disabled when playing Tidal MQA tracks. It pissed me so much I switched to Qobuz and also vowed to never buy anything MQA in the future.
 

hmscott

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Nah, I don't believe there's any support to stream the cursed MQA via Roon>RP4.
I actually switched back to the standard D90 from D90 MQA due my VST/DSP plugins being disabled when playing Tidal MQA tracks. It pissed me so much I switched to Qobuz and also vowed to never buy anything MQA in the future.
That's why I didn't start down that road, I didn't want to hit a dead end for my music playback preferred source. I've been watching the progression of RP for years, waiting for it to have enough power to use for applications I need, and for some network stuff it's already there, but for audio it's still maturing.

Someone(s) will need to partner with MQA to tune and certify the "Shield" or RP4 itself hardware - or perhaps ARM can work with MQA to design an approved "module" / design that an ARM customer could implement.

For non-native Tidal MQA streaming there are other options, like Cayin's new N3Pro that uses your phone's streaming apps to feed it data to process - there is an Android / iOS Cayin app to support the functionality - I haven't tried it, but I am thinking of getting one to play with. Perhaps that kind of supported Tidal app streaming link through to RP4 / Shield might be supportable.

TIDAL CONNECT LAUNCHES WITH MQA SUPPORT
https://www.mqa.co.uk/newsroom/partners/tidal-connect

That's been useful for switching between Tidal on phone, tablet, and PC - when you are inactive on the previous player and start being active on another device you have set up Tidal it automatically can start where you left off on the other device. I wonder if that might eventually link up non-supported MQA renderers with supported MQA renderers?
 
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hmscott

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Right. I own an USB 2.0 intona and honestly, it can only power low-energy devices. Even a little audio dongle maxed out in power would make it lose connection at peak consumption :) it works well for devices that hardly need the mA, others not so much.
No experience with the USB 3.0 one.
Are there any affordable USB isolators that work and would be worth trying? Either USB => USB, or USB to Optical, or USB to AES / I2S / ?

Can the PI2AES be used as a converter between USB and USB / Optical / AES / I2S, rather than be the end node / player / renderer?
 

Final

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USB noise sucks. I’ve tried different fixes. Ferrites, power conditioners and the Ifi 3.0.
The Ifi helped, but just a tiny bit. Could stil hear USB noise from listening position. The noise varied from time to time in strengt but was unacceptable.

Went for the Intona and all ground noise disappeared. After a while I bought a new power supply for the PC. That was the root cause in my chain and the new power supply fixed the problem. Now I don’t need the Intona in the chain, but it may come in handy in the future.
For the record, the DAC used at the time was not topping.
 

Jimbob54

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USB noise sucks. I’ve tried different fixes. Ferrites, power conditioners and the Ifi 3.0.
The Ifi helped, but just a tiny bit. Could stil hear USB noise from listening position. The noise varied from time to time in strengt but was unacceptable.

Went for the Intona and all ground noise disappeared. After a while I bought a new power supply for the PC. That was the root cause in my chain and the new power supply fixed the problem. Now I don’t need the Intona in the chain, but it may come in handy in the future.
For the record, the DAC used at the time was not topping.

I have had a laptop power supply kick all kinds of noise into HP/amps not even connected in the chain electrically (PC was wifi to streamer)- moved the supply as far away as possible- interference stops. Horrendous things!
 

Veri

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Are there any affordable USB isolators that work and would be worth trying? Either USB => USB, or USB to Optical, or USB to AES / I2S / ?

Can the PI2AES be used as a converter between USB and USB / Optical / AES / I2S, rather than be the end node / player / renderer?
Any USB>optical/coaxical/AES converter should be able to provide a noise-free digital output if you have usb ground noise. Optical especially offers great and easy galvanic isolation. D10s has coax/opt out with 'free' stereo RCA outputs as a bonus ;)
The USB isolators are to keep using your trusted USB connection. I have no experience with cheaper ones, I got my Intona 2.0 industrial ver. second hand for under €100. Still pricy for what it is. But it does work :)
 

hmscott

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USB noise sucks. I’ve tried different fixes. Ferrites, power conditioners and the Ifi 3.0.
The Ifi helped, but just a tiny bit. Could stil hear USB noise from listening position. The noise varied from time to time in strengt but was unacceptable.

Went for the Intona and all ground noise disappeared. After a while I bought a new power supply for the PC. That was the root cause in my chain and the new power supply fixed the problem. Now I don’t need the Intona in the chain, but it may come in handy in the future.
For the record, the DAC used at the time was not topping.
Do you notice any GPU noise when gaming or other heavy GPU usage? Or is this not part of your personal system usage? Watching Video's doesn't cause the GPU to work hard enough to generate noise.

What brand / model of power supply was the quiet one? I'm build a new computer based on the AMD Ryzen 5000 / Radeon 6000 parts, and need to select a power supply.

Thank you! :)
 

nelamvr6

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Nah, I don't believe there's any support to stream the cursed MQA via Roon>RP4.

In fact Roon can stream native Tidal MQA to a Raspberry Pi 4, that's what I use. I'm running RoPiee on my Pi 4, I have no extraeneous noise at all, just great music.
 
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EdW

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I concur that RPI4 solutions are free of USB noise when paired with a D90. Now retired I did consider borrowing a spectrum analyser from ex colleagues to take some measurements but as an alternative I fed the D90 RCA 2V O/P into the 200mV I/P of my amp at full volume and listened to the background studio noise on a 24/96 recording which had silence for some 10sec before very low level vocals. (full modulation would have produced a theoretical 136dB SPL at 1m - something I was anxious to avoid :) ).
No USB noise was heard with ears within a few inches of the loudspeaker drivers.
 
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