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Topping D70s MQA Review (DAC)

amarsicola

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Very interesting post OpenSky. With my Average Joe's understanding, AKM 4497 has 32 bits (max value is 4,294,967,296) so a cd-quality 16 bit signal (max is 65536) will start to be heavily degradated when attenuation is below 0.00152% of its 5V signal, and still it will be truncated when attenuation level sits not exactly in one of the 65536 integer multiples of 65536. So it seems we are pretty fine if AKM decided to use such multiples when implementing the volume steps. What makes subjectivist reviewers so fond of preamps is a mistery for me, maybe impedience plays a role?
Experts are welcome
 
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OpenSky

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Very interesting post OpenSky. With my Average Joe's understanding, AKM 4497 has 32 bits (max value is 4,294,967,296) so a cd-quality 16 bit signal (max is 65536) will start to be heavily degradated when attenuation is below 0.00152% of its 5V signal, and still it will be truncated when attenuation level sits not exactly in one of the 65536 integer multiples of 65536. So it seems we are pretty fine if AKM decided to use such multiples when implementing the volume steps. What makes subjectivist reviewers so fond of preamps is a mistery for me, maybe impedience plays a role?
Experts are welcome
Thank you very much for weighing in on this! I was hoping it would catch someone's attention. Is 16 bit signal without distortion even with high attentiation when we have a 32bit DAC? What I'm especially wondering about is what about Hi-Res streaming where 24 bits is very common and frequency might range from 44khz to 192khz: is the 24 bits affected as we increase attentionation to -42 or -48db? Yes, experts as well as those with lived experience are very welcome. It makes me also wonder if the electronics associated with the output of a DAC (in this case Topping D70s MQA) may interact differently with the receiving part of the amp than some preamps might? If so perhaps it's not all about theorectical bit count but the energy dynamics between say a preamp and amp vs DAC and amp? You mentioned "maybe impedance plays a role". I really have no clue but do sense that not everything is simply voltage and DB calcuations and whatever else we can measure. Yes experts welcome. THank you again amarsicola.
 

Nettuno

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Hi everyone ..
I just got the D70s, I would like to know how much and how does it change after the first 200/300 hours of listening?
 
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Hi everyone ..
I just got the D70s, I would like to know how much and how does it change after the first 200/300 hours of listening?
Pay no attention to those who prefer to listen to numbers and graphs, before buying the D70s I had a dac in my system for 3 years, so I already knew its sound very well, and when I bought the D70s I compared the 2 dacs to understand the difference in sound, and it was quite evident that the D70s evolved its sound with the burn in, I consider that 200h is enough time to reach its peak...
 
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BDWoody

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Hi everyone ..
I just got the D70s, I would like to know how much and how does it change after the first 200/300 hours of listening?

If the sound changes, something probably is broken...I'd send it back.
 

BDWoody

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Pay no attention to those who prefer to listen to numbers and graphs,

What a silly thing to edit into your post...

If you have nothing more than uncontrolled subjective claims, your 'evidence' is actually what can be ignored.
 
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Sorry, I edited it before I saw your message, it wasn't directed at you, but if you don't trust your ears and don't have the practice of listening to your system for hours how do I make it difficult to notice what changes in your system...
 

BDWoody

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Sorry, I edited it before I saw your message, it wasn't directed at you, but if you don't trust your ears and don't have the practice of listening to your system for hours how do I make it difficult to notice what changes in your system...

If you don't use or even understand the need for controls, you are relying on a lot more than your ears, which makes any conclusions drawn pretty much meaningless.

Do you think other electronics burn in? Medical imaging? Military radar? I hope I get my MRI after its properly burned in...and all...
 
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If you haven't read my post carefully, I used my previous dac as a control, it was my reference to assess the degree of evolution between the 2 dacs.

Whether you agree or not is up to you to take the same test and draw your conclusions...
 

BDWoody

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If you haven't read my post carefully, I used my previous dac as a control, it was my reference to assess the degree of evolution between the 2 dacs.

Whether you agree or not is up to you to take the same test and draw your conclusions...

I read it carefully, and didn't see any kind of proper controls described, and still haven't.

Maybe this will help explain what I mean when I say controls.

 
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Even to evaluate or test something you need third-party guidance to know what's best for your ears???

I don't want to prolong this debate, if you don't trust your ears, and prefer to be guided by others, I believe that the audio hobby is not for you, because if you can't distinguish the difference between higher or lower highs or lower frequencies, fidelity or not of the source, but prefer to believe only in graphics, there are dacs with the same response in the graphics and different sound, if you don't believe, just listen...

Ideally, the audio signal would not change from the source to the speakers, but as this doesn't happen in the real world of audio hobby, we have to trust our ears and understand the sound of our system and the acoustics of the room or headphones to find a balance.

And to finish before deciding to stick with D70s I tested 2 other dac models on my system and none of them pleased my ears because "their sound characteristics" were inferior to my dac at the time, the D70s managed to be better...
 

BDWoody

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I don't want to prolong this debate, if you don't trust your ears, and prefer to be guided by others, I believe that the audio hobby is not for you

I think you've got that backwards...

I prefer not to be guided by others who don't understand the importance of controlling for bias in their testing. I prefer to be guided by my understanding of the science, which can certainly include subjective observations by the way...not by hearing what someone tells me THEY hear, especially when it makes zero sense.

Either back up anecdotal claims with actual evidence, or don't make the claims and get upset that nobody believes you and your 'truth.'
 

Veri

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I don't want to prolong this debate, if you don't trust your ears, and prefer to be guided by others, I believe that the audio hobby is not for you, because if you can't distinguish the difference between higher or lower highs or lower frequencies, fidelity or not of the source, but prefer to believe only in graphics, there are dacs with the same response in the graphics and different sound, if you don't believe, just listen...
I just think this is the wrong forum for you, and that you got things backwards; believing people's on their own anecdotes to me, is being guided by others. Having to "believe" is nothing you should need to do on a science-first forum, you just need to interpret the facts.
You're also close to bordering on the typical "you probably don't have good enough gear to distinguish the difference between <insert stuff here>" which again, doesn't prove anything besides having spent a lot of money. I really like ASR for not being yet another money-spending-circlejerk, there's plenty of audio circles for that :D
 

Nick5

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Guys, there is no need to be mean to people who realize changes in equipment sound with time. The issue of burn-in is controversial because our ears and how we perceive acoustics are not the same. I'm an engineer and have a good background in electronics. I also noticed a change in the sound of D70s and it wasn't gradual as some may perceive. In my case, the sound suddenly shifted (to the better) between 200-250 hours. Better means smoother and slightly more open soundstage.
The only explanation I could reach for such a phenomenon is the forming of the electrolytic capacitors over time. Chill out and enjoy the music...
 

BDWoody

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I also noticed a change in the sound of D70s and it wasn't gradual as some may perceive. In my case, the sound suddenly shifted (to the better) between 200-250 hours. Better means smoother and slightly more open soundstage.

Uh huh.
 

304290

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Let me give you a good personal example of why some types of subjective opinions are frowned upon here. Many, many years ago in the early days of audio forums, I use to put stock into subjective opinions like these. This led to me wasting thousands on audio equipment that I ended up not liking .

Though measurements don’t always tell the complete story, I’ve never had a piece of equipment that measured good, sound bad. But have had several where measurements weren’t good, that did sound bad. Measurements are to be taken as a guide to at least get something that’s solid with good engineering, that will sound the way it’s suppose to.
 
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