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Time Domain measurements?

thorvat

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One should be careful not to create new myths.

Someone who can hear the group delay in a crossover LR4@2kHz with normal music can, according to the current state of science, join the Avengers - even if the superpower is not likely to do much against Thanos ;)


In most cases, phase equalization might also lead to a change in the frequency response of the loudspeaker. It is likely that this frequency response change is perceived and not the group delay change.

Nice post, especially the Avengers and Thanos part. :D

Unfortunately whatever you say, whatever proofs you offer and experts and their research you quote you simply can't make folks to stop believing in some things. :facepalm:
 

Frgirard

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You had clipping because you didn't compensate for the filter gain.
i know but the eq calculation for the filter linearization change the amplitude of the signal so it's not hard to heard a change and in my case a bad change.
 

dasdoing

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Actually, a difference is visible if FDW is applied.

If you generate minimum phase versions, and than aply the FDW it will be the same.
personaly I think FDW should be adjusted for this in REW. just because some frequencies are too late for the limited window it doesn't mean they are not there
 

dasdoing

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Unfortunately whatever you say, whatever proofs you offer and experts and their research you quote you simply can't make folks to stop believing in some things

again, I think the discussion is confusing if we talk about crossovers and not the whole system.
I doesn't matter if the crossover time distorsion is audible, since there is audible group delay in any system anyways.
The "you simply can't make folks to stop believing in some things" part actualy aplies to folks who say phase correction is not necessary because "studies prove that crossover phase distorsion is not audible".
 

ernestcarl

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a difference but what is the cause: eq calculation vs the phase correction ? When i used rePhase i had clipping ...

Probably you were applying boosting PEQs without putting in the appropriate amount of negative gain adjustment -- but that's unrelated to what was used here.
 

dasdoing

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phase manipulation can cause clipping, cause peaks that werent aligned can end up beiing aligned. adding a high pass filter to a track is a famous example of this hapening. There is a topic here somewhere where a user had this problem. it seams impossible if you don't look at the time domain. it's like a pencil going trough a piece of paper. if you look at it in the 2D domain you wont understand what is happeining in 3D
 
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Tom Danley

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I am confident ot has been proven otherwise too :p
If ones definition of "distortion" is the alteration of a signal's information, then not having crossover phase shift is the right direction.

What i found developing the Unity and then Synergy horn passive crossovers was #1 that ANY alteration of amplitude causes a corresponding phase shift (the minimum phase relationship).
This means the low pass section is behind in time. While none of the named filter slopes allow this, one can physically put the hf behind in time a corresponding amount physically and then adapt a crossover shape to fit.

The main issue that limits what or how far one can go with FIR DSP of an existing speaker has to do with how far apart the drivers are and how large you want the sweet spot to be.
The higher you go in frequency and farther the drivers are apart, the smaller the "correct" zone can be. The lower in frequency you correct phase (the more taps you use) , the more "everything else" is / has to be delayed back to the "slowest" element. When one is using a "gated" measurement system like ARTA etc and are dealing with the low frequency end, average a number of measurements and be sure not to do anything below the valid data cutoff (set by how long your time window is). In fact if possible measure outside, you don't want any room sound in your speaker DSP measurement.
 

gnarly

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If ones definition of "distortion" is the alteration of a signal's information, then not having crossover phase shift is the right direction.

What i found developing the Unity and then Synergy horn passive crossovers was #1 that ANY alteration of amplitude causes a corresponding phase shift (the minimum phase relationship).
This means the low pass section is behind in time. While none of the named filter slopes allow this, one can physically put the hf behind in time a corresponding amount physically and then adapt a crossover shape to fit.

The main issue that limits what or how far one can go with FIR DSP of an existing speaker has to do with how far apart the drivers are and how large you want the sweet spot to be.
The higher you go in frequency and farther the drivers are apart, the smaller the "correct" zone can be. The lower in frequency you correct phase (the more taps you use) , the more "everything else" is / has to be delayed back to the "slowest" element. When one is using a "gated" measurement system like ARTA etc and are dealing with the low frequency end, average a number of measurements and be sure not to do anything below the valid data cutoff (set by how long your time window is). In fact if possible measure outside, you don't want any room sound in your speaker DSP measurement.
Maybe my view is too simplistic, but it seems to me the primary goal with reproduction, is to have acoustic output replicate the input signal.
So i like your definition of "distortion". :)

The prime component in achieving that, appears to me to simply be frequency response, both magnitude and phase, from a transfer function of signal vs speaker. With emphasis on and phase.

I've made the goal of building speakers that are as technically correct, mag and phase, as i can.
I don't really care about phase audibility studies that say 'why bother' with phase, as that just seems a copout to avoid the effort and expense of getting phase correct.
Besides, until we have a phase-perfect system to listen to, we don't have a valid reference to compare to.
To me, 'phase correct' is a no-brainer, can't loose and can only gain, design goal....

Second major design goal , mainly from studying your posts and designs, is keeping drivers within 1/4 wavelength spacing though xover summation range. Thank you.

Putting those two simple goals together, flat mag and phase, and close-coupled drivers...well, it makes most the whoopla about what works and doesn't work, the various types of distortion, etc, etc,....... seem kinda overthought .....and ironically primitive.
 

thewas

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As endless tests and research has shown most important for the rating of a loudspeakers are on-axis and of-axis (directivity) responses, then come distortions and phase linearity is finally only the icing on the cake which has very small influence on the audible result (except on rare pathological loudspeaker designs which usually though show up also on frequency and directivity responses).
 

gnarly

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As endless tests and research has shown most important for the rating of a loudspeakers are on-axis and of-axis (directivity) responses, then come distortions and phase linearity is finally only the icing on the cake which has very small influence on the audible result (except on rare pathological loudspeaker designs which usually though show up also on frequency and directivity responses).

Yes, Toole is another of the gentlemen whose work and posts i regularly follow. Refer to his book often, and enjoyed the interview with Olive, that Erin recently posted.

I'm totally onboard with the idea smooth directivity is a prime component of satisfaction with speakers.
In fact, my last two years of speaker DIY have been mainly about trying to achieve the best total on-ax and off-ax response i can, measuring outdoors on a spinorama as reflection free as possible.

A little background info....
Like everything in audio, once a certain threshold is met, improvements in a particular aspect such as frequency response or directivity, don't bring much extra to the party.
I had run into that on my DIYs with on-ax frequency response (mag and phase). I'd become adept at correcting minimum phase variations, while leaving the rest alone. Near perfect mag and phase was easy, and getting even more perfect was going nowhere.
So directivity became my focus in search of SQ improvement. And after a couple of years effort, I now feel i've hit the threshold of 'diminishing returns' with directivity/polars.

In my simplified take, overall directivity is a function of the speaker's acoustic design. And as we know directivity can't be changed with processing, other choosing correct xover frequencies for smooth directivity transitions between driver sections, and minimizing lobing.
Imo, we kind get hung with having to make an upfront choice on what kind of directivity we want.....the speaker choice defines it.
Maybe all the cardioid and beam steering stuff will eventually change all that, but i'm not holding my breath....

So I've found my directivity choice in DIY conical MEHs/Synergies. And like said, feel i've taken their polars as far as i can.
And now i'm circling back around to mag and phase, looking at various xover strategies/orders.....mainly because i've moved from 4-way MEHs (counting sub) to 5-ways, and their is a lot more room to move xover points around. (5-way active, FIR processing driver-by-driver.)

Through all this, i must say i simply cannot live without phase linearity any longer;
because A, for however much it helps or not, it sounds awesome,
and B, it's honestly by far the easiest way to achieve great frequency response (if you can afford the latency.)

I've mentioned all that in the hope it lends some credence to my post(s).

Ok, return to topic...
To borrow a phrase from Toole, i think speaker building has it's own 'circle of confusion'.
Can we really assess good directivity until we have good response? Can we assess good response until we have good directivity? Can we do any of that without good bass? Do we need to listen outdoors to isolate speaker from room (i think so, best room in my house is clearly outdoors).

I think phase linearity fits strongly into this circle of confusion.
And yes, determining phase audibility has proven difficult at best as shown by many studies. that imho have failed to meet the necessary conditions on the 'speaker quality circle of confusion'.

Like you say, phase linearity may only be the icing on the cake....but hey, ain't icing the part that makes the cake taste so great !:D
 

Frgirard

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Toole forgot the bass response as all this forum.
The bass is the problem and it's easy to ignore him but not easily to have a good bass response. This is impossible in living room with high decay with little woofer. 10" is little.
 

DonH56

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Toole forgot the bass response as all this forum.
The bass is the problem and it's easy to ignore him but not easily to have a good bass response. This is impossible in living room with high decay with little woofer. 10" is little.

I think you need to read a few more posts on this forum, and more of Toole's work, before making a statement like that. There are many, many posts on bass response and Dr. Toole covers it in his texts and papers, as do many others.
 

dasdoing

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I have never read Toole's work, but judging on what followers output in this forum it seams heavily biased.
also it doesn't matter if or not phase issues are audible with loudspeakers in an anechoic room...it is not our room. the video I posted shows that phase problems have to be solved even to a semi-deaf person
 

pkane

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I have never read Toole's work, but judging on what followers output in this forum it seams heavily biased.
also it doesn't matter if or not phase issues are audible with loudspeakers in an anechoic room...it is not our room. the video I posted shows that phase problems have to be solved even to a semi-deaf person

It's always good to judge someone's life's work based on what random people say about it on the internet. Why bother forming your own informed opinion when there are so many others that have already done it for you? /s
 

Frgirard

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I have never read Toole's work, but judging on what followers output in this forum it seams heavily biased.
also it doesn't matter if or not phase issues are audible with loudspeakers in an anechoic room...it is not our room. the video I posted shows that phase problems have to be solved even to a semi-deaf person
Read Toole and you could erase (maybe) your prejudices.
YouTube is the country of Alice.
 

aac

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Is it possible to extract phase data from raw measurements on the site to construct FIR filter to linearize phase?
 
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