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Thoughts on power conditioners?

SIY

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As for test protocol, a “normal outlet” should be characterized before its alternatives are dismissed.
Look at the AUDIO output of the powered device. Any significant power-supply-related issues? If no (and that's usually the case), alternatives can be dismissed because they are not necessary.
 

andreasmaaan

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Look at the AUDIO output of the powered device. Any significant power-supply-related issues? If no (and that's usually the case), alternatives can be dismissed because they are not necessary.
Do you not think it might be useful to know how products perform when fed by different types of supply? Maybe amir’s power is cleaner than average, and some devices would perform significantly worse under different power conditions?

I don’t know electronics btw - maybe it’s obvious to someone who does that there is no relevant difference between amir’s power and anyone else’s. But if there’s a chance of some relevant difference, quantifying the conditions would be useful imho.
 

SIY

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Do you not think it might be useful to know how products perform when fed by different types of supply?
If you're developing a product, sure.

Coincidentally, when looking at engineered products at three different residences I've had over the past decade, they must also have had clean power since I saw no issues from the power line. Ditto Peter Aczel's lab. And John Atkinson's. We all test (or tested) amps/preamps/DACs without fancy power conditioners. I admit to using a $20 surge protector, though...

What was the line from Goldfinger? Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.;)
 

SIY

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I had this conversation a few weeks ago with one of the scientists who works for me and was struggling with a customer issue, which was more customer than issue. "The only thing harder to solve than a problem is a non-problem." I may turn that into a motivational poster.
 

andreasmaaan

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Ah yes sorry, misunderstanding. Was not suggesting Amir should test gear with a power conditioner in line.

Was suggesting it might be useful to test gear with really dirty power, to see if it copes.

Or is this obviously pointless, i.e. will gear performance obviously not to significantly compromised by the kind of dirty power found in certain neighbourhoods/cities/countries?
 
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Look at the AUDIO output of the powered device. Any significant power-supply-related issues? If no (and that's usually the case), alternatives can be dismissed because they are not necessary.
I got your point from your earlier statement. Are we not discussing criteria for testing, or is there a consensus that there's nothing to see here, move along?
 

SIY

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The latter. People with really awful power are already well aware of it and can buy line conditioners as they see fit (I would avoid any of them specifically directed at audio). Components that are designed rather than engineered so that less-than-terrible but less-than-perfect power is an issue will invariably have many other performance flaws that will show up in testing. It's like what I say about the usual attacks on politicians- "There's so much really wrong with the guy, why are you bothering to make stuff up?"
 

amirm

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Do you not think it might be useful to know how products perform when fed by different types of supply? Maybe amir’s power is cleaner than average, and some devices would perform significantly worse under different power conditions?
I have a programmable lab AC supply that can simulate AC distortion. At some point I will test with that and effect of any conditioners.
 

trl

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I wonder if anyone really understands what's explained here: https://www.audioquest.com/content/aq/pdf/Power-Demystified-whitepaper-8-23-18.zip.

I don't understand what audio tests files are they using and where from I can download them, also...not sure what their graphs are trying to prove.

Maybe Amir's AC supply able to generate AC distortions might help here, even without using a conditioner, just to see if these distortions really affects DACs and amps and in what amount. Thank you!
 

amirm

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Maybe Amir's AC supply able to generate AC distortions might help here, even without using a conditioner, just to see if these distortions really affects DACs and amps and in what amount. Thank you!
It can do that and indeed I have planned to run such tests.
 

Frank Dernie

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It can do that and indeed I have planned to run such tests.
That would be interesting.
My view is that a piece of mains driven electronics that needs extra mains filtration before working correctly is a bad design, and if anybody working for me had come up with something like that they would be looking for another job.
It would be extremely interesting to know if any brands are lacking.
 

RayDunzl

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It can do that and indeed I have planned to run such tests.

PS Audio's regenerators (at least, the earlier ones) let you create different waveforms for the AC power output, and called it a good thing.

"Playing around with different waveforms, PS Audio's engineers heard differences, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, usually with tradeoffs. Eventually, they settled on one approach: a modified waveform with a wider peak than a sinewave has. PSA says this waveform recharges power-supply capacitors more effectively than a standard sinewave, which makes sense: The waveform is at or near its highest for more of the cycle. In the P10 and P5 Power Plants, MultiWave is available in six strengths, with each progressive step correlating with increased capacitor-charging time (and thus decreased power-supply ripple); the P3 Power Plant offers just one MultiWave setting. https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-p10-power-plant-ac-regenerator "


How exactly that is supposed to through the next transformer in the chain is beyond my payscale (seems like maybe it really wouldn't) but, there you go.


From the original much older Power Plant P300 Manual:

MultiWave II Waveforms [sin] SineWave In the sine wave mode the Power Plant will generate a perfect sine wave (50-120Hz).

[tub] TubeWave TubeWave is specifically designed to optimize the performance of tube based audio products. TubeWave uses the same pseudorandom generation of frequencies as MultiWave2 waveform, however it utilizes more “tubefriendly” frequencies.

[P-1] MultiWave1 MultiWave1 is a single 60Hz sine wave with a minute amount of 3rd Harmonic sine waves mixed together to form a single partial square MultiWave. This is an improved version of PS2 from the original MultiWave™ series. The partial square wave setting improves the power supply’s ability to charge the capacitors in equipment by extending the length of time available to "top off" the capacitors' voltage. Use this setting to enhance the performance of both source and power equipment.

[P-2] MultiWave2 MultiWave2 is a 60Hz sine wave that incorporates a pseudorandom collection of frequencies which are dithered from 55- 65Hz. Using this slightly random frequency deviation is similar to adding dither on a digital audio source. Power supply dithering can lower the perceived noise floor and help remove apparent glare on the audio signal.

[P-3] MultiWave3 MultiWave3 is a combination of P-1 with a slight degree of 3rd harmonic addition (P-1). Try this setting and see how the audio sounds and the video looks. All systems can respond differently to each MultiWave pattern.

Audio Buddy has a P300.

Martin Glasband (of Equitech) figured any "improvement" came from its Balanced Output.

I use an Equitech.
 

amirm

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PS Audio's regenerators (at least, the earlier ones) let you create different waveforms for the AC power output, and called it a good thing.
Yeh, I remember reading about them. From what I can tell, they lost the audiophile love with that product though.

I have the older generation PS Audio Regenerator where you can only change the frequency. It produces very clean power, comparable to my lab AC generator.
 

trl

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There's a PDF file from the ZIP file here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...on-power-conditioners.636/page-10#post-185749. I'm really struggling to understand what was that test about and where are those audio test files. Hope someone will jump in with some thoughts.

P.S.: Please note that "The research, conducted by the University of Minnesota, identifies a virulent strain of humans who are virtually immune to any form of verifiable knowledge, leaving scientists at a loss as to how to combat them", based on https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/scientists-earth-endangered-by-new-strain-of-fact-resistant-humans, so our proofs need to be able to bend these guys too. :)
 

RayDunzl

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