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Theoretical minimum noise levels?

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I was curious if anyone could address what the lowest possible S/N ratio might be for a line level device such as a DAC. I read somewhere that the Johnson/Nyquist noise of a 300k resistor is -144db at 1khz, but I'm not sure if real world devices can do better or worse.

So - putting distortion aside, what is the theoretical minimum noise level for a DAC?
 

SIY

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I was curious if anyone could address what the lowest possible S/N ratio might be for a line level device such as a DAC. I read somewhere that the Johnson/Nyquist noise of a 300k resistor is -144db at 1khz, but I'm not sure if real world devices can do better or worse.

So - putting distortion aside, what is the theoretical minimum noise level for a DAC?
Depends on the number of bits.
 

Capitol C

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The physics is that voltage across a resistor fluctuates because the electrons have random motion unless they are cooled to absolute zero. This is characterized by squaring the voltage that you measure and taking the average of the squared voltage. (If you don't square it, it is positive as often as it is negative, so you get zero average voltage but not zero average voltage squared.)
The formula states that <V^2>=4kTRB, where <> means average, the square of V is V^2, the Boltzmann constant k=1.38066 x 10^(-26) joules per kelvin degree, T is the absolute temperature in kelvin, R is the resistance in ohms , and B is the bandwidth in hertz of the measurement. If you use T=296 kelvin which is 73.13 degrees Fahrenheit, <V^2>=[1.635x10^(-20)]RB.
To get something in dB requires a reference level, and there are many different conventions. One common level is 1 mW (a thousandth of a watt). To compare apples to apples, we need to convert the Nyquist formula to power instead of voltage, which fortunately is not too hard, as P=<V^2>/R. Thus, combining the last two formulas gives P=[1.635x10^(-20)]B. Calling the reference power Pref, the noise power in dB is
10log(P/Pref). A common electronics reference power is Pref=1 milliwatt=10^-3 watts, so the formula becomes 10log{[1.635x10^(-17)]B}. You can see that this does not depend on the frequency, but on the bandwidth or the range of frequencies. If the bandwidth B=1 kHz, the formula says 10log{[1.635x10^(-14]}=-138dB. This is the total noise contained in a one kilohertz range of frequencies, for example, between 2 kHz and 3kHz, or between 10 kHz and 11 kHz.
Notice that the larger the bandwidth, the larger the noise. If, for example, we want the total noise from 0 to 20 kHz, the answer is -124 dB, and this is relative to a 1 milliwatt signal.
I hope that someone checks the math, and also I hope that someone who thinks about acoustics instead of electronics will correct any mistakes I've made, up to and including being completely off the rails here!
 

Blumlein 88

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Online thermal noise calculator. Notice the key aspects are resistance, bandwidth and temp.

A device with 10 ohms output impedance would give -144.9 dbV. This at 20 degrees celsius and 20,000 hz bandwidth.

Meanwhile 100,000 ohms gives 104.9 dbV.
 

SIY

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The physics is that voltage across a resistor fluctuates because the electrons have random motion unless they are cooled to absolute zero. This is characterized by squaring the voltage that you measure and taking the average of the squared voltage. (If you don't square it, it is positive as often as it is negative, so you get zero average voltage but not zero average voltage squared.)
The formula states that <V^2>=4kTRB, where <> means average, the square of V is V^2, the Boltzmann constant k=1.38066 x 10^(-26) joules per kelvin degree, T is the absolute temperature in kelvin, R is the resistance in ohms , and B is the bandwidth in hertz of the measurement. If you use T=296 kelvin which is 73.13 degrees Fahrenheit, <V^2>=[1.635x10^(-20)]RB.
To get something in dB requires a reference level, and there are many different conventions. One common level is 1 mW (a thousandth of a watt). To compare apples to apples, we need to convert the Nyquist formula to power instead of voltage, which fortunately is not too hard, as P=<V^2>/R. Thus, combining the last two formulas gives P=[1.635x10^(-20)]B. Calling the reference power Pref, the noise power in dB is
10log(P/Pref). A common electronics reference power is Pref=1 milliwatt=10^-3 watts, so the formula becomes 10log{[1.635x10^(-17)]B}. You can see that this does not depend on the frequency, but on the bandwidth or the range of frequencies. If the bandwidth B=1 kHz, the formula says 10log{[1.635x10^(-14]}=-138dB. This is the total noise contained in a one kilohertz range of frequencies, for example, between 2 kHz and 3kHz, or between 10 kHz and 11 kHz.
Notice that the larger the bandwidth, the larger the noise. If, for example, we want the total noise from 0 to 20 kHz, the answer is -124 dB, and this is relative to a 1 milliwatt signal.
I hope that someone checks the math, and also I hope that someone who thinks about acoustics instead of electronics will correct any mistakes I've made, up to and including being completely off the rails here!
Easy rule of thumb: For a 1k resistor, the Johnson noise at room temperature is about 4nV/rt Hz. It's easy to then get noise density for other resistances, since the noise density scales as the square root of the resistance.
 

Blumlein 88

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Of course we've not answered your question have we? :)
 

restorer-john

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I think SIY did.

Not quite.

The OP asked about a "line level device such as a DAC". That is the complete device, not just the D/A chip itself. Typical D/A converter ICs are either voltage or current output, with the latest super high specification D/A converter ICs going back to current output in order to get better spec sheet numbers.

That of course passes the buck to an external IV stage (an opamp) and of course the final buffer stage (another opamp or two). It's those two stages where the device as a whole becomes noise limited.

Although we are seeing some 24 bit driven D/A converters tested here on ASR with ~>1uV residuals (at the output jacks), they are still well below the 24 bit level in real terms. Consider things have not changed much, we have CD players with 1.5uV residual noise (20-20k) over 30 years ago, but they were of course limited by the source material (16bit) , not the D/A converters and analog stages. They would be now.

Whatever way you look at it, these modern devices are incredibly quiet. It has gone way past the point where it doesn't matter anymore.
 

dc655321

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Not quite.

The OP asked about a "line level device such as a DAC". That is the complete device, not just the D/A chip itself. Typical D/A converter ICs are either voltage or current output, with the latest super high specification D/A converter ICs going back to current output in order to get better spec sheet numbers.

That of course passes the buck to an external IV stage (an opamp) and of course the final buffer stage (another opamp or two). It's those two stages where the device as a whole becomes noise limited.

Although we are seeing some 24 bit driven D/A converters tested here on ASR with ~>1uV residuals (at the output jacks), they are still well below the 24 bit level in real terms. Consider things have not changed much, we have CD players with 1.5uV residual noise (20-20k) over 30 years ago, but they were of course limited by the source material (16bit) , not the D/A converters and analog stages. They would be now.

Whatever way you look at it, these modern devices are incredibly quiet. It has gone way past the point where it doesn't matter anymore.

I understand your point (I think?), but isn't ~1uV about an order of magnitude above the LSB for a 24bit, 2V device?
 

Capitol C

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I think that Johnson/Nyquist noise is not a big problem. First, it is very low and second, other noise sources become significant in resistors when they have a dc current in them, and third, other nonlinear components suffer from noise, too. I could probably keep going on this list, but it is best to stop before I forget that I'm not lecturing a captive audience of physics majors but am talking to smart people who can leave at any time.
When high-temperature superconductors came along on the late 1980s, I thought about selling a cheap amp with circuit-board traces consisting of copper coated with YBCO, one of the easiest to make of the new superconductors. It would have worked like a normal amp because of the copper, but if you had access to liquid nitrogen, you could pour it into a container that cooled the traces. Complete and total BS, of course. Two things stopped me. First, most people don't have access to nitrogen. Second, I had a small residual conscience in spite of many years of life.
Things have changed in the last 30 odd years. I think it would now be possible to sell a small nitrogen generator for a few thousand bucks including a large markup, of course. Second, I'd skip the YBCO and just state that the resistance of copper drops by about a factor of 10 at liquid nitrogen temperature.
Unfortunately, though, my conscience, which is even smaller now than it was 30 years ago, keeps me from doing this scam. But if anyone is interested, go right ahead and do it. You could also sell cables which are surrounded by a double-insulated tube that is periodically filled with nitrogen.
 

Capitol C

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Time to start a rumor ...
Now, that is an idea. See my suggestion for a cooled amplifier below. It might be fun to put together a glossy promotion for the products and let them go on the internet...
 

KSTR

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So - putting distortion aside, what is the theoretical minimum noise level for a DAC?
 

DonH56

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I was curious if anyone could address what the lowest possible S/N ratio might be for a line level device such as a DAC. I read somewhere that the Johnson/Nyquist noise of a 300k resistor is -144db at 1khz, but I'm not sure if real world devices can do better or worse.

So - putting distortion aside, what is the theoretical minimum noise level for a DAC?

Assuming only quantization noise, no other noise or distortion sources, SNR ~ 6N + 1.8 dB for an N-bit DAC. See e.g. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ital-audio-converters-dacs-fundamentals.1927/ That is the noise added by converting a perfect analog signal to a signal that is discrete in time and amplitude.

Analog output buffers add noise, of course, but how much depends upon the design. A perfect DAC would have no other noise sources and meet the equation above.

Noise sources like thermal/Johnson/Nyquist, shot noise, flicker noise, and the zillion or so other sources is probably beyond an Internet post. There are big books you can read and college courses you can take...

HTH - Don
 
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So, follow up question - will we ever see a 24 bit DAC which actually offers 24 bits of noise free performance?

I'm just curious what the practical limit to a SINAD score is. It does appear that distortion dominates in higher end DACs.
 

ZolaIII

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Theoretically there is no limit to the extent of currently available FP 512 bit vectors. Practically mesured so far take a look at the dashboard 21 bit integer (or around 123 dB SINAD). To the extent that there is no reason to insist on more than 21 bit integer even as bit perfect (anything below should be discarded).
 
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