The sadness of wasted bits

[CapMan]

Had the joy of listening to a live jazz trio up close tonight. Unbelievable dynamics - from the most gentle brush work to pounding accents. From a whisper that we strained to hear to a musical cacophony (in the best sense!)

The compressed recorded jazz I hear at home just doesn’t come close - even the good stuff. I feel like we’ve been cheated of everything digital promised us. Where have all those 24 bits gone!?

 

[Doodski]

Had the joy of listening to a live jazz trio up close tonight. Unbelievable dynamics - from the most gentle brush work to pounding accents. From a whisper that we strained to hear to a musical cacophony (in the best sense!)

The compressed recorded jazz I hear at home just doesn’t come close - even the good stuff. I feel like we’ve been cheated of everything digital promised us. Where have all those 24 bits gone!?

Drums especially high hats and cymbals are not anywhere real on recordings. Keyboards are vibrant and pulsating and the bass has feeling and emotion. Not as much on recordings. That's one of the reasons I crank the PEQ so much.

 

[DMill]

On another thread we talk about a great system for 10 year old. My advice would be to take the money and see a concert. Build an appreciation for music and not gear. Alan Parsons said something along the lines of audiophiles listen to music to hear their gear and not the other way around. There really is no substitute, take it from someone who loves the gear.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

My experience too in New Orleans listening to mainly acoustic ( horns and double bass and such) jazz music in clubs and small halls. Gave me a good reference of what I should aim for though. I’m pretty happy with my main
home system. I think so many people just haven’t experienced such clarity that they don’t know what they are missing. I didn’t until too late in life.

 

[CapMan]

I’m a (very amateur) drummer and the lightness of touch of a great player just blows me away. The way the tiniest
stick movement on a hi hat carries - unbelievable .

 

[CapMan]

Build an appreciation for music and not gear.

This - every time . I’d add - an appreciation for great musicians ..

 

[CapMan]

I’d also say - seek out the smaller clubs for live music where local talent plays. Often it’s far better (music and value) than a prestigious venue with big names .

 

[CapMan]

My experience too in New Orleans listening to mainly acoustic

It’s on my bucket list to visit New Orleans .

 

[wwenze]

On another thread we talk about a great system for 10 year old.

 

[Azathoth]

This is why I always take the opportunity to attend live concerts and such. I only really use my audio gear to watch TV series, play video games, things like that.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I've heard recordings that had no (or exceedingly little) compression. The first complaint was, "TURN IT DOWN! THAT"S TOO LOUD!" The second complaint was, "Turn it up! I can't hear the soft parts!"

Wasn't there an Aesop's Fable about a man, a boy, and a donkey?

Jim

 

[Philbo King]

I’m a (very amateur) drummer and the lightness of touch of a great player just blows me away. The way the tiniest
stick movement on a hi hat carries - unbelievable .

This is how to tell a real drummer from a deathmetal basher.

 

[kemmler3D]

This is how to tell a real drummer from a deathmetal basher.

Death metal is actually a very technically demanding genre, my guess is a lot of those guys could actually become passable jazz drummers without too much re-training.

 

[sonitus mirus]

Unless the venue is pure acoustic and the environment and your seating position are ideal, the live sound that is heard is still being processed in a similar manner that would be done with a digital recording.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Unless the venue is pure acoustic and the environment and your seating position are ideal, the live sound that is heard is still being processed in a similar manner that would be done with a digital recording.

For some reason, at least in my experience, it is easier to find small jazz clubs that are acoustic without PA assistance or gear amps. Even coffee houses with a single singer/songwriter seem to have at least one microphone and house speakers more often than Jazz clubs. At least where I live which is not New Orleans or any city known for its music.

 

[JaMaSt]

Drums especially high hats and cymbals are not anywhere real on recordings. Keyboards are vibrant and pulsating and the bass has feeling and emotion. Not as much on recordings. That's one of the reasons I crank the PEQ so much.
View attachment 320832

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've heard recordings that had no (or exceedingly little) compression. The first complaint was, "TURN IT DOWN! THAT"S TOO LOUD!" The second complaint was, "Turn it up! I can't hear the soft parts!"

Wasn't there an Aesop's Fable about a man, a boy, and a donkey?

Jim

This is true for sure. I think using a little more room sound helps with the "Turn it down, turn it up" problem. Without it music can sound so brash it hurts. With the room sound accentuated (by mic placement and choice) it seems to provide a little buffer against that. Plus in the live situation there is quite a bit of low level sound, but you are ignoring it in a way you don't listening to a recording. So the room sound will seem a bit over the top if you don't do any processing, but I think overall the result is better. It keeps you from turning it up too far in quiet periods while allowing it to sound lively when it gets loud. Still doesn't sound like being there.

 

[kemmler3D]

I think (a big) part of the issue is that uncompressed microphone recordings of live instruments (drums in particular) sound pretty bad. I don't have a full explanation for this, other than mics pick up the room (or don't) in a way that sounds nothing like actually being in the room.

Go listen to some totally dry recordings of drums sometime. It's possible that if you turned them up so that the peaks were at >100dB SPL and your speakers could really handle it, they might sound realistic. However, in most situations, they just sound a bit absent until you add some compression.

Bottom line, I am not sure it's really desirable to create stereo recordings with no dynamic compression. Mic recordings don't translate to something that sounds natural automatically.

 

[MRC01]

Had the joy of listening to a live jazz trio up close tonight. Unbelievable dynamics - from the most gentle brush work to pounding accents. From a whisper that we strained to hear to a musical cacophony (in the best sense!)

The compressed recorded jazz I hear at home just doesn’t come close - even the good stuff. I feel like we’ve been cheated of everything digital promised us. Where have all those 24 bits gone!?

Most of the problem is recording and mastering engineers who apply dynamic compression to make the recording sound as loud as possible. It's unnecessary and ruins the music. Or, to be more kind, it optimizes the recording for listening on cheap earbuds in noisy environments.

I think (a big) part of the issue is that uncompressed microphone recordings of live instruments (drums in particular) sound pretty bad. I don't have a full explanation for this, other than mics pick up the room (or don't) in a way that sounds nothing like actually being in the room.

Go listen to some totally dry recordings of drums sometime. It's possible that if you turned them up so that the peaks were at >100dB SPL and your speakers could really handle it, they might sound realistic.

I have a few recordings like this and they sound absolutely fantastic. Drums and Bells by Dutz & Wabich, and the drum tracks on one of the Stereophile test discs. I've also made some of my own amateur recordings of live events that sound quite good without dynamic range compression or any other post-processing.

However, in most situations, they just sound a bit absent until you add some compression.
Bottom line, I am not sure it's really desirable to create stereo recordings with no dynamic compression. Mic recordings don't translate to something that sounds natural automatically.

My experience and opinion runs opposite - the natural mic recording sounds fantastic. Too may "professional" recordings are over-produced and sound artificially "punchy" and "exciting" but not natural or realistic.

 

[Philbo King]

For some reason, at least in my experience, it is easier to find small jazz clubs that are acoustic without PA assistance or gear amps. Even coffee houses with a single singer/songwriter seem to have at least one microphone and house speakers more often than Jazz clubs. At least where I live which is not New Orleans or any city known for its music.

I was thinking about this yesterday, after playing a few songs on stage at a pub where everybody was jabbering over the music. It's pretty depressing...