The pain of being a member of ASR

[Multicore]

Yes, I'd like to provide another perspective on the exquisite sound of my SE triode amplifiers. The audio signal is initially charged to 1000 volts and, as it passes through the iron in the output transformers, it becomes magnetically captivating for the listener.

Now that's esoteric. Like Zoroastrian magic, I've no idea what it is or how it works but such mystery is an essential part of the attraction.

Or so I presume.

 

[MattHooper]

I wonder if this might 'color' how we select or playlists. We might self-select our preferred recordings to listen to based on what our systems are doing, or not.

Not in my case. I need my system to please me with any genre, which it does.

But certainly you’ve brought up a long time issue among audiophiles. There are audiophiles who got rid of speakers saying they were good for some genres not for others and they found themselves selecting music based on that.

Then there is the old audiophile saw about how “really accurate speakers” have made a lot more recordings sound bad, so now they are seeking out high quality recordings and limiting other music they loved.

My speculation is that in some of those cases the speakers may not have been neutral but some scoop out in the warmth region and maybe slight emphasis in the highs left them believing they were “ruthlessly revealing” in a monitor-like way.

 

[Multicore]

As in that thread you started recently, you are not alone in reflecting on participating here on the forum. The aggressivity is getting too much. The "rightfulness" of so many members is getting annoying, not that what they are saying per se is not correct but in the perspective that there is so much more at play when listening to a whole sound system in a given room that just looking at the little speck of data, how ever objectively exact that data is. As if all that matter to them is to be "right".

Their is indeed still a lot to learn and discover about our passion for HiFi, here at ASR, a lot to share, but, lately, the efforts to go trough all the rigorist diatribe, feels a lot more like going trough a jungle that a nice walk in the park. Is it worth the efforts, probably, but does it really has to be so unappealing? Ignore list can only be so long.

In another long and very nice thread that @computer-audiophile and I take part in, some of the same kind of ugly stuff intruded and threatened to end it, more than once, iirc. I resisted abandoning it to the provocateurs. There are two methods I used there and elsewhere.

First, always be tuning my heuristic ignore filters and when a filter trips, really ignore. This can be hard because provocations are by definition provocative. So the task in effect is to rearrange my buttons so they are less easily pushed, or to remove/hide attack surfaces, or to learn to not take bait. Skills useful beyond internet forums so worth the effort.

Second, engage provocateurs in as far as possible perfectly literal and in good faith until they reveal their intent, whether it's to disrupt or to make a worthwhile point that I had not initially understood. If I do this really in good faith then I only risk the time and patience I invest. This involves a lot more effort than the first method but it can work.

Why bother? I feel put upon enough in this life and even very small defensive victories can be encouraging. I need encouraging.

 

[dkinric]

I've mentioned this before, but this issue reminds me so much of The Matrix (1999 movie) - red pill vs blue pill.

More directly, one's enjoyment of your system is much more reliant on what you BELIEVE than what you actually HEAR. And isn't the end game really enjoyment?

If someone buys an uber expensive amp for example and convinces themselves it sounds better - is it any more or less enjoyable for them than one who knows the measurements of their Purifi amp is putting out much cleaner sound? Although many of us (like myself) take enjoyment from knowing our equipment is/measures better than most others, does the other guy who believes the same about his snake-oily amp for different reasons enjoy it any less? Probably not.

Once you've seen the data here, and understand the science, it is nearly impossible to go back. But for others, who have never been on ASR and believe just as passionately that their wooden cable risers have improved their sound - is there really any difference in their enjoyment and pride in their system choices vs. true objectionists? Of course, a big benefit is not throwing money away, but that's after taking the red pill.

This audio hobby is weird. It's ostensibly about equipment, but really it's more about psychology and the physiology of "hearing".

 

[Anton D]

Not in my case. I need my system to please me with any genre, which it does.

But certainly you’ve brought up a long time issue among audiophiles. There are audiophiles who got rid of speakers saying they were good for some genres not for others and they found themselves selecting music based on that.

Then there is the old audiophile saw about how “really accurate speakers” have made a lot more recordings sound bad, so now they are seeking out high quality recordings and limiting other music they loved.

My speculation is that in some of those cases the speakers may not have been neutral but some scoop out in the warmth region and maybe slight emphasis in the highs left them believing they were “ruthlessly revealing” in a monitor-like way.

All good natured apologies: I said 'recordings' and not genres.

I think we have all run across good music recorded badly, that's what I meant.

I agree with you about speakers being able to handle any genre of music!

Again, sorry if that sounded like I meant genres of music rather than specific recordings.

 

[DanielT]

For my own case I think I answered that when I explained being a pragmatic antiaudiophile (#191). I'm more disposed to utility than decoration and have no interest (sentimental or otherwise) in vacuum tube technology. Even as an electric guitarist since the late 70s I always chose effects plus linear amps (better control). I grant tubes look cozy but that's no reason for me to replace my @Buckeye Amps NC252MP. For cozy I can get efficient decorative LEDs like this

View attachment 331888

If good tube amps weren't so damn expensive, I could absolutely imagine a good tube amp.
That is, not crazy high distortion (inaudible ditto). A tube amp that takes care of everything above 80-100 Hz.

The problem is to bring together not damn expensive, tube amp and good performance (or ok performance) into a whole.

 

[MattHooper]

All good natured apologies: I said 'recordings' and not genres.

I think we have all run across good music recorded badly, that's what I meant.

I agree with you about speakers being able to handle any genre of music!

Again, sorry it that sounded like I meant genres of music rather than specific recordings.

Ah, right.

I have similar feelings about recordings as well. I want to enjoy as many recordings as possible on my system.

In contrast, there was an audiophile on the Reddit forums recently, who posted very enthusiastically about his new speakers, Genelec, as I remember. He reported that many of the recordings and albums he had liked I’ve been revealed to be terrible recordings. And now he really seeks out only the highest quality audio file type recordings.

He was not bummed out by this at all, and in fact, said, he loves it, basically wanted the speakers to tell them exactly what recordings were like.

So it takes all kinds

 

[Multicore]

The problem is to bring together not damn expensive, tube amp and good performance (or ok performance) into a whole.

If good performance also includes overwhelming power and superior efficiency then ok. But wasn't it the combined drawbacks on cost, power and efficiency that obsoleted tubes?

For harmonic distortion I prefer controllable effects and a linear amp. That way I'm not stuck with one setting hard-wired into my amp that requires me to ride the volume control to dial in the right distortion.

The last time I was in a hifi shop the owner (whom I respect) had a little preamp or something on his desk waiting for pick-up after a repair. I asked what it was and he told me. I asked how the tube sticking out of it comes into the circuit and if it is mono. He said no and that it had something to do in the power supply an is really just a gimmick for people who like that kind of thing. And iirc he said it was cute.

 

[DonR]

If good performance also includes overwhelming power and superior efficiency then ok. But wasn't it the combined drawbacks on cost, power and efficiency that obsoleted tubes?

For harmonic distortion I prefer controllable effects and a linear amp. That way I'm not stuck with one setting hard-wired into my amp that requires me to ride the volume control to dial in the right distortion.

The last time I was in a hifi shop the owner (whom I respect) had a little preamp or something on his desk waiting for pick-up after a repair. I asked what it was and he told me. I asked how the tube sticking out of it comes into the circuit and if it is mono. He said no and that it had something to do in the power supply an is really just a gimmick for people who like that kind of thing. And iirc he said it was cute.

A single tube sticking out and cute? Something for the ladies, perhaps?

 

[DanielT]

If good performance also includes overwhelming power and superior efficiency then ok. But wasn't it the combined drawbacks on cost, power and efficiency that obsoleted tubes?

For harmonic distortion I prefer controllable effects and a linear amp. That way I'm not stuck with one setting hard-wired into my amp that requires me to ride the volume control to dial in the right distortion.

The last time I was in a hifi shop the owner (whom I respect) had a little preamp or something on his desk waiting for pick-up after a repair. I asked what it was and he told me. I asked how the tube sticking out of it comes into the circuit and if it is mono. He said no and that it had something to do in the power supply an is really just a gimmick for people who like that kind of thing. And iirc he said it was cute.

Therefore no tube amp that needs to work below 80-100 Hz. Disconnect and let a sub take care of that. Thus, not so much tube amp power is needed.

That said, I'm not a tube amp dude. Although I think they look nice with their tube amp glow.

 

[MattHooper]

Good science should be absolute in it's conclusions

Actually, that would be a sign of bad science.

All scientific theories and conclusions are and should be provisional, not absolute. It's the very openness to "being wrong" and revision that distinguishes science from dogma.

 

[krabapple]

Would this be called 'a pain in the ASR'?

 

[Anton D]

A single tube sticking out and cute? Something for the ladies, perhaps?

What would it be for the guys, a stick?

 

[DonR]

What would it be for the guys, a stick?

Any bookshelf pair from KEF

 

[Anton D]

Any bookshelf pair from KEF

Kudos!

 

[Waxx]

Good science should be absolute in it's conclusions which are both verifiable and repeatable. Life is just a whole lot more enjoyable and affordable when you actually accept that as fact. Unfortunately a lot of folks today are a little short on the actual "sciency" part of their beliefs on a whole variety of topics.

A real scientist should always question existing science to approve it with facts or correct it with better science based on scientific proof, not accept it as an dogma. Only religions do have real unquestionable dogma's.

 

[Keith_W]

Having said that, when I visit my friend now in winter and he uses some tube amp (with visible tubes), it feels cozy somehow. He is a tube amp nut, I might add. The coziness overflows and I imagine hearing that (cozy sound). Whether it's there or not I don't know, probably not but these tubes that glow in the dark have an ability to seduce.

We all know that provided the amplifier is adequate, the audible difference will be minimal. We also know that the expectation bias from seeing those nice warm tubes and feeling the heat in winter creates a "cozy" and "warm" sound, even if it is in our imagination. None of these should be news to anybody on ASR.

My thinking on this is somewhat unusual - why not leverage the warm and cozy appearance of tubes to increase your enjoyment of audio? I already have a lot of non-audio tweaks that substantially increase my enjoyment of my system - things like a clean room, vacuumed carpet, fresh flowers in the vase, mood lighting, nice glass of wine and some cheese ... all these make zero objective, measurable difference to the sound, but it does put me in the mood for listening to some music. And yes, I do own tube amps.

 

[DanielT]

We all know that provided the amplifier is adequate, the audible difference will be minimal. We also know that the expectation bias from seeing those nice warm tubes and feeling the heat in winter creates a "cozy" and "warm" sound, even if it is in our imagination. None of these should be news to anybody on ASR.

My thinking on this is somewhat unusual - why not leverage the warm and cozy appearance of tubes to increase your enjoyment of audio? I already have a lot of non-audio tweaks that substantially increase my enjoyment of my system - things like a clean room, vacuumed carpet, fresh flowers in the vase, mood lighting, nice glass of wine and some cheese ... all these make zero objective, measurable difference to the sound, but it does put me in the mood for listening to some music. And yes, I do own tube amps.

It's just a matter of putting a little candle here and there to make it cozy:

 

[Sokel]

The one specific pain about being a member here and now is also the absence of a lot of expert members that started strong and they are now completely absent.

Their articles are still here thought and they are a great read from time to time.

There's also about a strange coloration with people interest in HT,in stereo only,pros and semi-pros with amateurs,which sometimes is interesting but sometimes is also confusing.

 

[Killingbeans]

If someone buys an uber expensive amp for example and convinces themselves it sounds better - is it any more or less enjoyable for them than one who knows the measurements of their Purifi amp is putting out much cleaner sound? Although many of us (like myself) take enjoyment from knowing our equipment is/measures better than most others, does the other guy who believes the same about his snake-oily amp for different reasons enjoy it any less? Probably not.

Definitely not. Enjoyment is enjoyment.

The only thing that really rubs me the wrong way is when people insist on presenting the enjoyment they get from placebo as a part of objective reality.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with loving something for "stupid" reasons, but when it brings you to a mental state where you start denying the basic laws of physics, it becomes problematic.

Some would probably argue that we shouldn't care about the bubble of "alternative reality" the hobby seemingly have created for itself. It's the main source of fun for a lot of people after all, and it has no impact worth mentioning on actual reality. I just personally think it's sad.

I'd like to see some more resources being put into solving real problems, rather than just one ridiculously pricy "magical quest" after another.