The missing link for desktop audio

[Chromatischism]

I just added a Minidsp 2x4HD to my desktop system and love it. The interface app is easy to use and works great.
There's a cheap remote control which allows control of presets, volume, and input selection. REW or similar is required to take measurements and apply correction, but in lieu of REW all the functions (crossover, parametric EQ, delay, levels) can be adjusted in real time by ear.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the 2x4 exists and it's a wonderful device, but there are players who could enter the desktop audio market and offer things that are currently just not available. MiniDSP has the SHD line but it's overkill for this so something in between would be nice to see. I'd love to see Denon leverage Audyssey in a 2.1 DAC/Pre.

If I used a 2x4 HD, I would probably try to go with FIR filters so while I have and use REW I'd need to learn another tool if I want to get the best results. I still wouldn't get loudness compensation, unless that is an option somehow?

 

[LearningToSmile]

The 18S is cheaper.

Only $1800.

But, again, I'm sure there are many more if you look around.

Adam, Eve, Neumann, Genelec, JBL, all should have similarly configured subs at whatever price/bass extension combo fits your budget.

The studio subwoofers are really bad value for money - the cheapest one that approaches the low end extension of even an entry level offering from something like SVS is Dynaudio 9S, and that's still almost twice the price for(hopefully) equivalent performance. There's a big gap between it and the budget studio subwoofers like the JBL 310S - if you're not satisfied by the performance of the $3-400 pro audio subwoofers you need to shell out almost $1k and there's nothing really in between.

I had the same issue so I went with an older SVS model that includes high passed throughput - unfortunately new models don't offer that functionality anymore. Sadly, it's not balanced, and I'm getting some ground loop issues with it. Luckily, most of the time it's fine, just every time I stress my GPU I'm getting some nasty noise, so I've been looking for an external balanced solution as well.

What I have arrived at is pro audio oriented external crossovers - I was hoping something like a Behringer CX2310 would be good enough, but I heard it's go some noise issues, so now I'm looking at dbx 223xs. Was intending to make a thread asking for opinions/alternatives soon myself. I'm not really interested in the miniDSP and similar offerings personally, because the selling point seems to be the EQ capabilities, and I don't need those.

 

[Chromatischism]

I'm not really interested in the miniDSP and similar offerings personally, because the selling point seems to be the EQ capabilities, and I don't need those.

So what does the Beringer do that is appealing to you?

 

[watchnerd]

The studio subwoofers are really bad value for money - the cheapest one that approaches the low end extension of even an entry level offering from something like SVS is Dynaudio 9S, and that's still almost twice the price for(hopefully) equivalent performance.

Oh, I never claimed they were the cheapest.

But if you've got the funds, I've been very pleased the pro subs I've used and how well they worked with active monitors.

 

[LearningToSmile]

So what does the Beringer do that is appealing to you?

The Behringer is just the cheapest balanced external crossover I found from a known brand - I mentioned it on this forum before and someone who owned one cautioned me about the noise issued they had with it. Which is why I turned to the dbx one which seems to be a bit more reputable brand(though obviously one can never tell for sure without measurements) while still being good enough value.

All I need is the crossover functionality and balanced input/output, and I don't mind the rack mount form factor. It might not be perfect but I highly doubt it's worse than the built in crossover in my subwoofer that I'm ok with currently(other than the ground loop issue).

But if you've got the funds, I've been very pleased the pro subs I've used and how well they worked with active monitors.

Oh yeah, absolutely, it's definitely a more elegant solution.

 

[Wombat]

CX2310 V2 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CCS Low thermal noise claimed.

CX3400 V2 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CCT Ultra low-noise op-amps claimed.

DCX2496 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B6H No noise issues my with DCX2496 or the DEQ2496.

There are many satisfied Behringer users.

 

[escape2]

so I went with an older SVS model that includes high passed throughput

SB2000 has an 80 Hz high pass filter. Is this what you're using?

 

[Chromatischism]

CX2310 V2 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CCS Low thermal noise claimed.

CX3400 V2 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0CCT Ultra low-noise op-amps claimed.

DCX2496 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B6H No noise issues my with DCX2496 or the DEQ2496.

There are many satisfied Behringer users.

Nice but pretty big for desk use and lacks the filter-loading capabilities of the MiniDSP.

 

[Wombat]

Nice but pretty big for desk use and lacks the filter-loading capabilities of the MiniDSP.

1 RU height. Set it up then put it beneath or behind/below the desktop or anywhere? They can be turned on/off using a master/slave power board.

I don't get into filters.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

If you want to get into sigma studio work, not auto eq but nearly unlimited possibilities.



https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/EVAL-ADAU1467Z?qs=BZBei1rCqCCDsBku5vHNkw==

or for $30. I use this with 3.5mm out from my computer.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayto...-ke-kernel-dsp-expansion-2-in-3-out--325-1300

 

[LearningToSmile]

SB2000 has an 80 Hz high pass filter. Is this what you're using?

No, I'm using its predecessor, SB-12 NSD. Are you sure that the output on SB2000 has a high pass filter? Because from what I could gather, it doesn't. Compare the SB2000 back plate:

There's only one output labeled "line level". The SB-12 NSD in contrast:

You can see two outputs, "line out" being the full range output, and "high pass out" being a separate 80hz high passed output.

But I don't own the SB2000 so maybe the high pass is still integrated in the line out somehow and they just don't advertise it.

 

[escape2]

But I don't own the SB2000 so maybe the high pass is still integrated in the line out somehow and they just don't advertise it.

I am just going by the specs listed on SVS website:
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000

"Fixed 80 Hz 12 dB/octave high pass filter on line level outputs"

 

[LearningToSmile]

I am just going by the specs listed on SVS website:
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000

"Fixed 80 Hz 12 dB/octave high pass filter on line level outputs"

You're right, must've missed that - so it's lacking in the other direction, if you want a full range output you don't have one? Interesting, I guess it makes sense.

 

[Willem]

In essence the question is about two different functions:
1 a high pass filter for the main speakers
2 dsp room equalization of at least the sub to get rid of room modes.

1 this can be done cheaply by Fmod inline filters, or similar. That is not as precise as a proper external crossover, but it may well be good enough if the low pass filter on the sub can be adjusted precisely. Of course, this only works with separate power amplifiers. Alternatively, the sub can be connected at speaker level, but that excludes the option to use a high pas filter.
2 room equalization for the combination of main speakers and sub can be done with REW and Equalizer Apo on the PC (assuming that as in my case the PC is the only source for a desktop system). Alternatively, an Antimode 8033 will equalize the sub without any problem.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Good to know!

I like the plugins, but I don't know if that helps @Chromatischism -- I don't think he's using a DAW from what he's written.

FYI, this setup guide explains how to use VST plugins with Windows, without the need for a DAW (i.e. just using Virtual Cable and a VST host). It can be used to run the DIRAC Live processor plugin, or any other compatible VST plugin.

 

[scrubb]

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the 2x4 exists and it's a wonderful device, but there are players who could enter the desktop audio market and offer things that are currently just not available. MiniDSP has the SHD line but it's overkill for this so something in between would be nice to see. I'd love to see Denon leverage Audyssey in a 2.1 DAC/Pre.

If I used a 2x4 HD, I would probably try to go with FIR filters so while I have and use REW I'd need to learn another tool if I want to get the best results. I still wouldn't get loudness compensation, unless that is an option somehow?

There is also the DDRC-24 which is like the 2x4HD but includes Dirac.

No loudness compensation unless you set up the four presets for different loudness, but you would still have to manually switch between them.

 

[escape2]

You're right, must've missed that - so it's lacking in the other direction, if you want a full range output you don't have one? Interesting, I guess it makes sense.

If you need full output to multiple devices, a simple RCA Y-splitter from your pre-amp/source should do the job.

 

[CrustyToad]

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the 2x4 exists and it's a wonderful device, but there are players who could enter the desktop audio market and offer things that are currently just not available. MiniDSP has the SHD line but it's overkill for this so something in between would be nice to see. I'd love to see Denon leverage Audyssey in a 2.1 DAC/Pre.

+1 on the idea of pre-amp/dac/dsp + crossover and optional streamer. I really don't see how we don't have more products like the SHD at various prices.

If anything, the past year has shown that excellent dacs don't have to be exprensive anymore. The next frontier is an awesome pre/dac/dsp + crossover(/streamer) below 800 (insert you currency here)....
Even a resized, stripped down AVR as mentioned in the OP would be great.

BTW: I have listed all options (I could find at least) for a 2.2 stereo setup here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ing-the-best-fit-and-value.17111/#post-553207

 

[Chromatischism]

+1 on the idea of pre-amp/dac/dsp + crossover and optional streamer. I really don't see how we don't have more products like the SHD at various prices.

If anything, the past year has shown that excellent dacs don't have to be exprensive anymore. The next frontier is an awesome pre/dac/dsp + crossover(/streamer) below 800 (insert you currency here)....
Even a resized, stripped down AVR as mentioned in the OP would be great.

BTW: I have listed all options for a 2.2 stereo setup here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ing-the-best-fit-and-value.17111/#post-553207

Nice list. Looks like we are both after similar solutions. One difference I see is that while your list focuses on Dirac, mine desires Audyssey for a couple of reasons.

First, Audyssey is much easier to use. I use it as an FIR-based correction up to 350 Hz on average. For this, it is superb, and I never have to fiddle with it. Bass is completely linearized and sounds great. In contrast, Dirac often requires a lot of working with the curves before you get a result that you're happy with, especially when trying to blend separate speaker and subwoofer curves.

Second is Dynamic EQ. I can't use my systems without it. Dirac does not have Dynamic EQ or any loudness compensation scheme, so your curve is only valid at one volume level +/- a little bit.

Finally, a Dirac license adds a lot to the cost of whatever hardware it is installed on.

For these reasons it just isn't the ideal solution for me.

 

[tehidiot]

+1 on the idea of pre-amp/dac/dsp + crossover and optional streamer. I really don't see how we don't have more products like the SHD at various prices.

There's DEQX as well (https://www.deqx.com/) but it's considerably more expensive than the SHD