The difference between recordings exceeds that of the difference between hifi systems

[earlevel]

My claims of the difference in dynamic range between vinyl recordings and compact discs come from the dynamic range database which almost without exception show greater dynamic range for vinyl vs. compact discs for modern pop music, for example Adele's 21 album which has an average dynamic range of between 5 and 7 for the CD while the vinyl record has a dynamic range of 11. I don't disagree that the compact disk and almost any digital technology including MP3 have a potentially greater dynamic range, lower distortion, noise and better frequency response than a vinyl record.

My main point was simply that most modern releases of popular music have less dynamic range for CD's and other digital media while records seem to be less affected.

My friend Ian Shepherd, founder of Dynamic Range Day and actively promoter of preserving dynamic range in music, addresses the misleadingly high vinyl dynamic range readings in this video. Ian has co-developed dynamic range measuring tools for recording and mastering engineers. While he can't nail it down to math, his business is mastering, so I trust his opinion here that the higher numbers in the dynamic range database for vinyl don't translate into apparent dynamic range.

 

[Aynsley]

I'm a fan of Camel, make of that what you might , however I got sucked into buying a modern remaster of "the snow goose" by reading a thread at the Steve Hoffman forums about flat transfers... compared to my old original issue CD, it sounds muffled and lifeless - you can't even hear breath sounds on the flute.

The first Camel album (1973) was one of the worst recordings it's been my misfortune to hear. I interviewed the band soon after the album was released, and their comments about the recording are unfit to print. Andy Latimer remastered the 1992 CD version and it's far, far better than the original vinyl, but I can't help thinking that no amount of digital processing will restore what was deleted at source.

 

[raindance]

The first Camel album (1973) was one of the worst recordings it's been my misfortune to hear. I interviewed the band soon after the album was released, and their comments about the recording are unfit to print. Andy Latimer remastered the 1992 CD version and it's far, far better than the original vinyl, but I can't help thinking that no amount of digital processing will restore what was deleted at source.

Yes, I have the remaster and it sounds like they did some very odd EQ on the vocals. It's all ghostly and whispery sounding. It is fairly smooth though. The next one was very harsh sounding, but better EQ choices were used for vocals. Some of the later releases were pretty good, but they were very uneven.

 

[Greenman]

I’ll give a positive example! As technology has improved the recordings of the Ellington Blanton-Webster band (as well as many Charlie Parker recordings) have been remastered to sound better and better. It is a treat to hear those in improved sound. The greatness (as with much great music) was largely personality-driven. Once they’re gone there are no do-overs in terms of the performance. But the improved remasterings help me to get inside the music more and more (I’m not that old to have lived and seen it). In this case I am thinking of the LPs versus the 1990 remasters that I have on CD versus the 1999 remasters I am listening to right now over Spotify.

https://www.allmusic.com/album/never-no-lament-the-blanton-webster-band-mw0000023432

I think of myself as more a music guy than a sound guy (though you might not know if from all of the electronic junk around my house). Hifi has always been an engaging pastime for me, but I can enjoy the heck out of the music I love on a cheap radio. BUT early jazz with the benefit of modern technology in terms of improved speakers and and remastering with modern technology is wonderful. When I sit in front of my Hifi I am a kid in a candy store with today’s streaming services.

Firstly, I’m not a Jazz fan (though I am trying to dip my toes in the water and try a few things).
Secondly I’ve not heard the LP versions of this, or the 1990 masters.
Thirdly, I’m in no way qualified to comment on the quality of the performances, I can say after 5 or 6 tracks this isn’t my thing at all.

What I will comment on is the sound quality of the 1999 remasters as they appear on Qobuz in CD quailty (the first few tracks). To me these are unlistenable! I understand these are from 1940 (ish) but it’s not the tape hiss that’s an issue it’s the blown levels on anything loud, there is just huge distortion on anything above even moderate level. Now I’m lucky that I do not tend to like music of this era, and maybe it’s something you just have to put up with, whether this was the original recording (mics overdriven, tape oversaturated) or whether it’s materialised in the near 100 years since I don’t know. But if this is your type of music I really don’t envy you, no matter how great the performances I couldn’t listen to this. sorry.

 

[StevenEleven]

Firstly, I’m not a Jazz fan (though I am trying to dip my toes in the water and try a few things).
Secondly I’ve not heard the LP versions of this, or the 1990 masters.
Thirdly, I’m in no way qualified to comment on the quality of the performances, I can say after 5 or 6 tracks this isn’t my thing at all.

What I will comment on is the sound quality of the 1999 remasters as they appear on Qobuz in CD quailty (the first few tracks). To me these are unlistenable! I understand these are from 1940 (ish) but it’s not the tape hiss that’s an issue it’s the blown levels on anything loud, there is just huge distortion on anything above even moderate level. Now I’m lucky that I do not tend to like music of this era, and maybe it’s something you just have to put up with, whether this was the original recording (mics overdriven, tape oversaturated) or whether it’s materialised in the near 100 years since I don’t know. But if this is your type of music I really don’t envy you, no matter how great the performances I couldn’t listen to this. sorry.

I like good music from the 1600s to the present day, from classical to jazz to rock to pop to electronic and beyond, so don’t feel too sorry for me.

Here’s a little more about Duke Ellington in case you are slightly curious.

Duke Ellington - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We both like Van Morrison so there is some common ground. I really like his song Tupelo Honey. That is a great song. Do you know what that song is about?

 

[Timcognito]

What I will comment on is the sound quality of the 1999 remasters as they appear on Qobuz in CD quailty (the first few tracks). To me these are unlistenable! I understand these are from 1940 (ish) but it’s not the tape hiss that’s an issue it’s the blown levels on anything loud, there is just huge distortion on anything above even moderate level. Now I’m lucky that I do not tend to like music of this era, and maybe it’s something you just have to put up with, whether this was the original recording (mics overdriven, tape oversaturated) or whether it’s materialised in the near 100 years since I don’t know. But if this is your type of music I really don’t envy you, no matter how great the performances I couldn’t listen to this. sorry.

The sound quality of that CD was panned by many reviewers. Maybe compressed on Spotify it passes. I bought it back in day and was immediately disappointed with its edginess.
This one is better.

 

[Greenman]

I like good music from the 1600s to the present day, from classical to jazz to rock to pop to electronic and beyond, so don’t feel too sorry for me.

Here’s a little more about Duke Ellington in case you are slightly curious.

Duke Ellington - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We both like Van Morrison so there is some common ground. I really like his song Tupelo Honey. That is a great song. Do you know what that song is about?

im aware of Ellington‘s stature and importance. My father in law was a Jazz fan and Ellington was one of his favourites. I dipped my toes in to Jazz years ago with ‘Kind of blue‘, didn’t like it and hadn't really tried much since. However as I have aged my tastes have mellowed somewhat and since getting on board with streaming thought I would dip in a bit more. I’ve discovered what I do like more tends to be the small club bands, quartets, trios etc. i.e some Oscar Peterson stuff, ‘jazz at the pawnshop’ etc. some of these are rightly hailed as superb recordings. Obviously an artist like Ellington is a bit overwhelming to dip into (where to start), so seeing your post I thought I’d try it, but this is just not my sort of thing at all, even if it had been sonically perfect.

On Morrison, I’ve always had a few albums but started digging though the rest, and there’s lots of great stuff there, strangely Tupelo Honey seems about the only album Qobuz doesn’t have !! So I’m not especially familiar with that one.

 

[StevenEleven]

im aware of Ellington‘s stature and importance. My father in law was a Jazz fan and Ellington was one of his favourites. I dipped my toes in to Jazz years ago with ‘Kind of blue‘, didn’t like it and hadn't really tried much since. However as I have aged my tastes have mellowed somewhat and since getting on board with streaming thought I would dip in a bit more. I’ve discovered what I do like more tends to be the small club bands, quartets, trios etc. i.e some Oscar Peterson stuff, ‘jazz at the pawnshop’ etc. some of these are rightly hailed as superb recordings. Obviously an artist like Ellington is a bit overwhelming to dip into (where to start), so seeing your post I thought I’d try it, but this is just not my sort of thing at all, even if it had been sonically perfect.

On Morrison, I’ve always had a few albums but started digging though the rest, and there’s lots of great stuff there, strangely Tupelo Honey seems about the only album Qobuz doesn’t have !! So I’m not especially familiar with that one.

I don’t like Kind of Blue either, I’m sick to death of it. It’s overplayed and over-rated, by my way of thinking. It seems like some Hifi nuts think it is the very definition of jazz! Some of the tunes are relatively easy to understand and play (badly) because of the relatively simple modal chord structures, which was I suppose one of the “innovations” of the album. When I was a kid I learned to play the trumpet solo (very badly) to a couple of the tunes of that album on my guitar. To borrow the title to one of the songs, “So What.” So maybe we are about on the same page with that one. And as I learned more about the character flaws of Miles Davis I liked him less and less overall, and it’s hard for those particular character flaws not to influence my perception of the music, so my opinion is probably pretty tainted.

If you can ignore the modest to minimal (by my taste) degradation in sound quality, on youtube you can find lots of recordings for free, as I’m sure you know. So here is Tupelo Honey, as provided by the record label:

I find this particular song pretty amazing. I had to pay close attention and give a few listens to start to get the different layers of meaning though, and of course, there is ambiguity that is open to interpretation.

There is a jazz thread on this board, it’s got a sticky (because I asked for it!), it might be worth flipping through the songs to see what is to your taste, what hooks you in. The styles range pretty widely and there are a lot of pretty sharp folks here with varied and interesting tastes:

Thread 'Jazz ♫ Music only | In the now, or recently, or that you love...'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...y-in-the-now-or-recently-or-that-you-love.90/

 

[levimax]

I don’t like Kind of Blue either, I’m sick to death of it. It’s overplayed and over-rated, by my way of thinking. It seems like some Hifi nuts think it is the very definition of jazz! Some of the tunes are relatively easy to understand and play (badly) because of the relatively simple modal chord structures, which was I suppose one of the “innovations” of the album. When I was a kid I learned to play the trumpet solo (very badly) to a couple of the tunes of that album on my guitar. To borrow the title to one of the songs, “So What.” So maybe we are about on the same page with that one. And as I learned more about the character flaws of Miles Davis I liked him less and less overall, and it’s hard for those particular character flaws not to influence my perception of the music, so my opinion is probably pretty tainted.

If you can ignore the modest to minimal (by my taste) degradation in sound quality, on youtube you can find lots of recordings for free, as I’m sure you know. So here is Tupelo Honey, as provided by the record label:

I find this particular song pretty amazing. I had to pay close attention and give a few listens to start to get the different layers of meaning though, and of course, there is ambiguity that is open to interpretation.

There is a jazz thread on this board, it’s got a sticky (because I asked for it!), it might be worth flipping through the songs to see what is to your taste, what hooks you in. The styles range pretty widely and there are a lot of pretty sharp folks here with varied and interesting tastes:

Thread 'Jazz ♫ Music only | In the now, or recently, or that you love...'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jazz-♫-music-only-in-the-now-or-recently-or-that-you-love.90/

When I listen to the original LPs or CDs of Van Morrison the dynamics of the vocals really stand out to me. The recording style is so much different than the current recording style. Many people think of dynamic recordings as classical music with the loud and soft passages. For me I hear the dynamics or lack thereof on vocals.

 

[Greenman]

Van Morrison does sail in and out of the Jazz genre from time to time, something like ‘Spanish Steps’ from Poetic Champions Compose is pretty straight ahead Jazz of the type that I can like

 

[StevenEleven]

Van Morrison does sail in and out of the Jazz genre from time to time. . .

True!!

When I listen to the original LPs or CDs of Van Morrison the dynamics of the vocals really stand out to me. The recording style is so much different than the current recording style. Many people think of dynamic recordings as classical music with the loud and soft passages. For me I hear the dynamics or lack thereof on vocals.

Agree!!