The case for pricier DACs...is there one?

[Taketheflame]

Hey all,

So from reading I've done on here (and elsewhere) about DACs, there seems to be a general consensus that DACs are among the more transparent components in audio, and there shouldn't be much, if any audible difference in audio quality between a $30 USB DAC, and DACs well past $1K in price (and some of them even measure pretty poorly compared to inexpensive options thought to be a good value on the market).

But there do seem to be differences in things like build quality, features (i.e filter options, remotes, # of inputs/outputs, power supply type, etc.). And there seems to be mixed thoughts on how these may or may not effect performance.

I guess I'm just curious - what's the general "threshold" for what is considered acceptable money to spend on a DAC, if sound quality is generally the same with nearly all of them? Does it just depend on what features one wants? I've seen quite a few DACs recommended on here across a wide range of price points, and it's mainly the ones that don't measure well that seem to get the "avoid" stamp (especially if they're expensive, understandably).

I only ask, because I've considered changing DACs, or adding one to my roster (current DAC is a Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus) but not because of audio performance (it sounds good to me) - more to have things like a remote and maybe some more filters to play around with. I'm also curious about reliability of cheaper wall wart vs linear power supplies? There seem to be arguments for and against both types...

 

[Wes]

30

 

[GDK]

My advice on DACs is:

- If you can afford it, buy an RME ADI-2 DAC FS and never have to think about DACs ever again
- If you cannot afford it, buy one of the other recommended ones here based on their price and the features you are after (in your case, a remote control)

Hope that helps.

 

[devopsprodude]

Hey all,
I guess I'm just curious - what's the general "threshold" for what is considered acceptable money to spend on a DAC, if sound quality is generally the same with nearly all of them? Does it just depend on what features one wants? I've seen quite a few DACs recommended on here across a wide range of price points, and it's mainly the ones that don't measure well that seem to get the "avoid" stamp (especially if they're expensive, understandably).

You spend what you want and can afford to spend. Just don't rationalize it by thinking it will sound better. So really it comes down to build quality, features, and how well the device was engineered (which we get from Amir's tests).

 

[Slayer]

I personally try and choose by features, connections, build quality, specs and then finally price. So I set a budget say $500 or less and try and get the best specs, along with the other factors previously mentioned. While the current top end specs don't very by much, probably won't sound any different, our minds still tell us to try and get the better spec'd unit.
When it comes to your general threshold of spending money, i would say that boils down to each individual person.
When it comes to PSU's, there are good and bad SMPS , so goes for Linear power supply's.

 

[goldenpiggy]

I think if you are happy with the sound, don't spend the money. There's always something better to do with that cash.

"You get what you pay for" holds true with most things in life EXCEPT home audio. With audio, there's always a sweet spot. With DACs, I think it's the $500 - $1000 range of current crop of DACs using top-shelf AK4499, ESS9038Pro, and custom R2R implementation. I could not get such detailed sound and slam from DACs 10 years ago. At least not with what I could afford.

Game changer for me has been to be able to take DSD over HDMI from a Blu-ray player into a $60 eBay converter box that spits out I2S to one of these modern DACs. I never got into ripping SACDs, so to be able to stick in a disc and have such glorious sound out of $100 player is unbelievable.

I used to own an Accuphase DP-700 SACD player that retailed here in the States for $25K. I think I paid $6K for it second hand in Japan. Was it worth it? Absolutely -- up to that point it was the best sounding player I have ever owned. When finances forced me to sell, I settled for an Oppo 205. For sure I could hear a difference. The Accuphase was really smooth and "rounded" -- not a hint of shrill, more like listening to tube amps. The Oppo was complete opposite: crystal clear, really rhythmic. I heard new things with the Oppo on the same discs I've been playing for 10 years.

These days I don't bother with the Oppo internal sound, because the D90 sound is more to my taste.

In my old-fashioned way of thinking, wall wart = shortcut to get regulatory approval to sell.
With the exception of a Kramer video switcher, I don't think I've ever experienced an internal power supply go bad. But had a few wall warts go bad. And it makes sense -- those things are packaged so tightly there's little to no ventilation.

I'd venture to say you get more enjoyment investing in a good software player that you can try all sorts of filters and settings. There you can really tailor the sound to what you like given a clean DAC.

 

[LightninBoy]

You are on the right track. The DAC is solved as far as transparent sound is concerned. I think the Atom DAC at $100 represents a good barebones DAC that is beyond transparent and has decent build quality/support. So thats a good minimum threshold.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jds-labs-atom-dac-review.14002/

From there its really just about the extra features you want. Given that, the RME ADI-2 I believe represents the upper threshold at $1200 as it is packed with features including a great headphone amp. So IMO, beyond $1200 you are getting into jewelry status symbol stuff - which is absolutely fine if that is what you want.

 

[JeffS7444]

I built an AMB Gamma 2 DAC a number of years ago, and for the life of me never could discern the slightest difference between it's filter settings in regular music-listening, nor the effect of changing from a basic power supply to AMB's deluxe linear supply. But OTOH, I could definitely hear the unit glitch due to local interference!

RME's DACs interest me a lot, but not strictly as DACs or headphone amplifiers, but for their addition of DSP features (headphone crossfeed, equalization). But at the moment, I have other ways to achieve these, and an not in the mood to spend 2000 USD for the convenience of having them all in one box.

I prefer built-in power supplies, but mostly because they play nicer with power strips, and are one less piece of clutter to keep track of.

 

[devopsprodude]

My advice on DACs is:

- If you can afford it, buy an RME ADI-2 DAC FS and never have to think about DACs ever again
- If you cannot afford it, buy one of the other recommended ones here based on their price and the features you are after (in your case, a remote control)

Hope that helps.

While the RME units are excellent, they are not best in class in terms of performance. Topping's amps are at the top and DACs from Gustard, Okto, and SMSL have similar features and class leading performance. Of course, those are separate units, but significantly cheaper. However, if you're looking for an integrated solution, the RME products are at/near the top of the class. They also have built in EQ and other functionality, which some people might be willing to pay a premium for (but I'm not one of those people).

 

[Pdxwayne]

I really like the BT features of my Gustard X16. This is a case where I would spend more money for my future DAC purchase.

 

[Racheski]

The idea is you want to maximize value per dollar spent. Value is a subjective concept, so what do you value in a DAC? Generally folks here value transparency, so we will recommend the cheapest transparent DAC that meets your other requirements. These requirements could include...

• Bluetooth
• Balanced line outputs
• Remote Control
• Specific input sources (AES, Toslink, SPIDF, RCA)
• MQA compatbility
• "Stackability"
• PEQ

 

[goldenpiggy]

I agree with most that with DACs, you want top-notch measurements over the entire audio band. It should sound like a wire. That doesn't mean you will end up liking such super clean sound though. But a clean DAC is a necessary starting point -- it allows you to tailor the sound to your liking later on downstream through the preamp, amp, speaker, etc., or upstream in the software player. Nothing wrong with using bass and treble knobs!

My only experience with RME was years ago when I owned their FF800 audio interface for a few years. It got rave reviews, had fantastic measurements, was built like a tank, had all the bells & whistles, but man I never liked the sound that came out of it (or went into it for that matter -- it was also an A/D converter.)

I later bought a Prism Sound Orpheus and A/B/A for a week. I knew I wasn't kidding myself. The Orpheus just sounded "better" to my ears. The Orpheus measures fantastically as did the RME FF800, although probably nowhere near the current crop of AK4499 or ESS9038 DACs. It had the fundamental -- measurements -- nailed just like the RME. But whether it was the op amps they used or particular discrete components, it all added up to a meatier sound more to my liking than the RME at the time.

 

[FrantzM]

I agree with most that with DACs, you want top-notch measurements over the entire audio band. It should sound like a wire. That doesn't mean you will end up liking such super clean sound though. But a clean DAC is a necessary starting point -- it allows you to tailor the sound to your liking later on downstream through the preamp, amp, speaker, etc., or upstream in the software player. Nothing wrong with using bass and treble knobs!

My only experience with RME was years ago when I owned their FF800 audio interface for a few years. It got rave reviews, had fantastic measurements, was built like a tank, had all the bells & whistles, but man I never liked the sound that came out of it (or went into it for that matter -- it was also an A/D converter.)

I later bought a Prism Sound Orpheus and A/B/A for a week. I knew I wasn't kidding myself. The Orpheus just sounded "better" to my ears. The Orpheus measures fantastically as did the RME FF800, although probably nowhere near the current crop of AK4499 or ESS9038 DACs. It had the fundamental -- measurements -- nailed just like the RME. But whether it was the op amps they used or particular discrete components, it all added up to a meatier sound more to my liking than the RME at the time.

I would assume that you performed the tests/auditions with clear knowledge of the DACs involved and without level matching. Two whammies. These shall results in inaccurate conclusions,
There is a large body of works that prove beyond doubt that past a certain degree of measurements. DAC sound the same.
DAC is a solved problem. Some of us are "SINAD chasers". We would go for the highest system SINAD as much as possible. We :know" that past 95 dB (I am prudent many would put it at much lower , say 75 dB ) we are likely to hear no difference but .. Hey... We have our toys and wants

Peace

 

[goldenpiggy]

Why would you assume that? I level-matched to the best I could according to the meters on my 8 bus board.

Ahh, if it were only about the actual D/A conversion process or the chip used. All things being equal (solid PS, good layout, stable clock), they should sound really, really close.

But in the real world you have different designs, from the filtering to output electronics -- post D/A conversion -- that influences the sound. A "slow" op-amp is not going to sound like one with double the slew-rate.

 

[Eetu]

I think I will never buy a "just-a-DAC" DAC again. DSP solutions like MiniDSP or multi-channel DACs from now on. Being able to do room correction, integrate subs and create digital crossovers.. way more important for me than 110 vs 120dB SINAD specs.

 

[devopsprodude]

I would assume that you performed the tests/auditions with clear knowledge of the DACs involved and without level matching. Two whammies. These shall results in inaccurate and conclusions,
There is a large body of works that prove beyond doubt that past a certain degree of measurements. DAC sound the same.
DAC is a solved problem. Some of us are "SINAD chasers". We would go for the highest system SINAD as much as possible. We :know" that past 95 dB (I am prudent many would put it at much lower , say 75 dB ) we are likely to hear no difference but .. Hey... We have our toys and wants

Peace

Yeah, the assumption is that the better the overall engineering, which shows through in tests, the better overall the unit is in other areas. Failing the engineering part is a big red flag that perhaps corners were cut elsewhere.

Like how Van Halen used the bowl of green M&Ms to determine if the venue had read their contract and set up the stage to their specifications. If the bowl of wasn't green M&Ms, they knew they had to go over every detail. Whether or not you like the band, you have to admire the genius and simplicity of that, as well as the story behind it. Anyhow, point is that details matter, and if you haven't gotten the engineering right, what else did you fail to do?

 

[Taketheflame]

Thanks everyone,

So then if DACs essentially boil down to "how much do you want to spend/what features other than SQ are you after?", I'm left with a couple more questions.

The Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus is actually an integrated unit (DAC + pre-amp & headphone amp in one). I'm considering going with separates if I do make a change - even if I may not explicitly need to, lol. That's mostly due to several alternative DACs I've considered not having built in headphone amps. But admittedly, I'm also kind of a sucker for stackability/matching components .

But here's what I'm wondering - if the DAC is transparent, then what about the pre-amp/headphone amp sections? Could these have more influence on the sound than the DAC section at all?

I listen to my DAC setup more often through speakers than headphones, so headphone compatibility isn't a huge issue for me - but I do still like having it for when I don't feel like powering up the other gear in the chain.

 

[devopsprodude]

Thanks everyone,

So then if DACs essentially boil down to "how much do you want to spend/what features other than SQ are you after?", I'm left with a couple more questions.

The Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus is actually an integrated unit (DAC + pre-amp & headphone amp in one). I'm considering going with separates if I do make a change - even if I may not explicitly need to, lol. That's mostly due to several alternative DACs I've considered not having built in headphone amps. But admittedly, I'm also kind of a sucker for stackability/matching components .

But here's what I'm wondering - if the DAC is transparent, then what about the pre-amp/headphone amp sections? Could these have more influence on the sound than the DAC section at all?

I listen to my DAC setup more often through speakers than headphones, so headphone compatibility isn't a huge issue for me - but I do still like having it for when I don't feel like powering up the other gear in the chain.

I've only seen a few integrated DAC/amps that measure well here. For example, the DACMagic Plus https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-of-cambridge-dacmagic-plus.6887/ is well down the list in SINAD scores. Monoprice Monolith THX DAC/amp also didn't score all that great. RME's products are the ones I've seen so far that measure near top of the class.

In my experience, a well designed amp is as transparent as a well designed DAC.

 

[MarkS]

For sure I could hear a difference.

Hi, I'm new here.

Curious to know if you ever verified this with a blind listening test.

 

[raif71]

After having several desktop dacs now what I look forward in future dacs are xlr output and max output voltage that is > 2v for rca and > 4v for xlr.