Surge protector recommendations?

[jtwrace]

Suggest reviewing the papers on the Series mode designs deployed by BrickWall, ZeroSurge and SurgeX.

Or watch the video of the owner of Zero Surge above in post #35. The tech in all the others is directly from Zero Surge.

 

[gattaca]

For brief drops and gen kick-in time, you need a good sine-wave UPS to step in as the failure is detected and when a generator can crank and pick up the load. This is pretty much standard operating designs we've used in datacenters for decades. On the UPS, be prepared to replace the batteries every 3-4 years depending on many factors like storage, operating temps etc.. I've found that my smaller 1200VA Sine-wave UPSes at home go thru batts about every 36 months.

WRT to ?? regarding nearby or directly lightening hits, there is precious little one can do outside of items being physically disconnected / unplugged and having insurance to protect and replace things fried in those close proximity hits. Stay safe, stay alive. Peace.

 

[audio2design]

Suggest reviewing the papers on the Series mode designs deployed by BrickWall, ZeroSurge and SurgeX.

And taking them with a grain of salt as they are as much marketing documents as tech documents with cherry picked data to suit them. I am not saying their technology does not work, but some statements in some of the documents I have read are creative in their use of data points.

 

[wgb113]

For brief drops and gen kick-in time, you need a good sine-wave UPS to step in as the failure is detected and when a generator can crank and pick up the load. This is pretty much standard operating designs we've used in datacenters for decades. On the UPS, be prepared to replace the batteries every 3-4 years depending on many factors like storage, operating temps etc.. I've found that my smaller 1200VA Sine-wave UPSes at home go thru batts about every 36 months.

I think a UPS is more like the solution I am looking for. Something that will protect against mild fluctuations and, in the event of a quick off/on cycle, allow me to power everything down correctly.

When you say sine-wave UPS are you referring to on-line UPS' that are always running?

 

[audio2design]

I think a UPS is more like the solution I am looking for. Something that will protect against mild fluctuations and, in the event of a quick off/on cycle, allow me to power everything down correctly.

When you say sine-wave UPS are you referring to on-line UPS' that are always running?

Sine wave means a pure and proper sine wave on the output as opposed to a quasi sine wave, i.e. stepped stair wave. I think most UPS are sine wave except the very cheapest.

 

[Speedskater]

And then you look at the current waveform at the AC input of a power amplifier and you wonder what the sine wave fuss was all about. The current waveform looks more like a square wave than a sine wave.

 

[gattaca]

I'm sorry for the delay in answering. Adding to above:

"Double conversion UPS" are probably what you are thinking of as "always on" These are usually true sine-wave. Most double conversion UPSes have multiple fans that run 24/7 so depending on size and location, be aware. I have an Eaton Powerware that ended up in the basement with those fans.

Generally, unless the UPSes specs state "true sine-wave", they will generate a "square wave" or "modified sine-wave" output which is fine for most computers PSU but the non-sine waves can play havoc with some power supplies found in AV and other equipment. In particular transformers and motors. These non-sine waves can cause everything from buzzing to overheating.

I've used APC's older "SmartUPS SU3000" units for 10+ years b/c they deliver sine-waves. I prefer models with ABM (active battery management) which might give longer battery life. From my experiences, expect to replace the UPS's SLA batteries every 36-48 months depending on use, storage and thermals. Factor that into whatever you are considering. These larger units are loud, might require 240V and well ended up in my basement.

I've used "RefurbUPS" for many years. Typically, their used UPS prices (with new generic batts) reasonable and they sell new too. Their used inventory varies. I've located good units on eBay but I also got a "marginal" unit once too. ;( YMMV.

Here's an example of a Dell/Eaton double-conversion with ABM and "true sine wave" ->
http://www.refurbups.com/Dell-2700W-K802N?sc=27&category=33583

Check out Youtube for vids showing sine-wave vs. non-sine wave comparisons. Also, find an online UPS...so you can hear those fans!

Stay safe, stay alive. Peace.

 

[bigguyca]

In addition to the zerosurge and furman that the equip is plugged into, I mounted one of these in the breaker box....
CHSPT2ULTRA
Eaton SPD Type 2 CHSP Service Entrance Surge Protection, 120/240V line, 150V L-N, 300V L-L MCOV, 600V L-N, 1000V L-L, 800V N-G, 600V L-G VPR, 22 kA SCCR, NEMA 4, Single-phase, 60 Hz, 20 kA nominal current discharge, 108 kA surge current

Most service entrance panels, such as Eaton's, are not listed (designed for) for internal installation of the device shown above. The device shown above is designed for installation next to the service entrance panel. Eaton makes 240V breakers that are combination of breaker and surge protector that can replace an existing 240V breaker in an Eaton service entrance panel or in a sub-panel. These breakers are very easy to install.

The 2020 National Electric code calls for (requires) a surge protector to be installed in a service panel in new installations. Companies such as Eaton now make service entrance panels with preinstalled surge protectors. This solution is of course most practical for new installations.

Surge protection is best installed, and is intended to be implemented, using a layered approach. Surges of 10kV or so maximum will be reduced to under 1kV, depending on the specifics of the installation, by the service entrance device, which is a Type 2 device. The remaining surge voltage can then be further reduced by Type 3 devices located close to the point to use.

 

[gattaca]

^^ Absolutely correct - the game is layers, layers, layers. Once the NEC starting requiring it in new construction, many firms (Eaton, Siemens, ...) have delivered viable products. Again, nothing but being 100% unplugged stands to thwart a direct or adjacent lightening bolt.

1) I used these at the main entrance panels:
-> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...House-Surge-Protection-Device-FS140/206560230

2) then layered in a few "Surge Breakers" on critical circuits. (Some makers do not have these for all panels....)

3) then used UPSes + SurgeX units in the last stages before the AV equipment.

Related story. I once had an older electric clothes dryer . When bad thunderstorms rolled thru and it was lightening (not necessarily nearby). you could hear a pop/crack in the dryer almost with every "large flash". So the spikes are real, as are your neighbor's motors, HVAC, compressors, etc... starting and stopping. Stay safe, stay alive. Peace.

 

[jhwalker]

I've got a couple of these cheap APC UPS I've had the odd brown out where its flipped over to battery which seems like a good thing, and its ground fault check works, let me know my upstairs sockets weren't grounded (yes a $5 checker can also do that). So its already doing some good. I like to think it will handle a little surge as well (now that I fixed the ground wiring)

Same, though I have gone for the more expensive (perhaps unnecessary) Sine-wave versions - UPS will work for a couple of hours for limited load and we seldom have blackouts that long (this past winter's Texas deep-freeze notwithstanding). We do have a LOT of over / under conditions, which these handle with aplomb.

 

[orangejello]

Does a surge protector require a three-prong grounded outlet, and/or are there any designs that work in non grounded, two prong situations?

 

[audio2design]

Does a surge protector require a three-prong grounded outlet, and/or are there any designs that work in non grounded, two prong situations?

A grounded outlet is not required. If your outlet is not grounded you can only protect the line-neutral connection which is often enough indoors as neutral and ground in the house are bonded.

 

[orangejello]

A grounded outlet is not required. If your outlet is not grounded you can only protect the line-neutral connection which is often enough indoors as neutral and ground in the house are bonded.

Thanks for the response. Is it possible to have no ground though? I haven’t seen any outlet that has a third wire going to it. So where would the ground likely be?

 

[audio2design]

Thanks for the response. Is it possible to have no ground though? I haven’t seen any outlet that has a third wire going to it. So where would the ground likely be?

Huh? All outlets have 3rd wires going to them in anything constructed in the last 50+ years. Some products don't use a 3rd prong because they typically have plastic cases and everything is double insulated.

 

[orangejello]

Huh? All outlets have 3rd wires going to them in anything constructed in the last 50+ years. Some products don't use a 3rd prong because they typically have plastic cases and everything is double insulated.

I am looking at the outlets here in Central America where brown-outs are quite frequent. No third wire going to any of them.

 

[audio2design]

I am looking at the outlets here in Central America where brown-outs are quite frequent. No third wire going to any of them.

Unfortunately you are at a state where we were about 50+ years ago, maybe 60+. I know being in a few countries in Central America, AC wiring is pretty dicey.

 

[Offler]

Only one note. My friend had a surge at home recently, and his PC died, regardless he had an UPS.

I got into tech details of the UPS and realized that it has surge protection up to 580 joule.

Power cables with good surge protection have over 1000 joule. I planned to buy same UPS (up to 400 dollars), but I settled just for a cable with surge protection with up to 2690 joule instead.

 

[orangejello]

Unfortunately you are at a state where we were about 50+ years ago, maybe 60+. I know being in a few countries in Central America, AC wiring is pretty dicey.

For example...

Maybe more like 100 yrs?

 

[GREG K]

Another vote for zero surge.

Series protector similar to surgeX products. No failure prone MOV's. I would consider whole house protection at the power panel.

 

[acpjay]

After reading through this entire thread, I understand that the best protection is a 3 layer approach: meter, panel, and point-source. For point-source, what do folks think about receptacles with built-in protection, such as this: https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.1208W.html? By itself (i.e., a non-layered solution) it clearly would be insufficient, but as the final layer in a 3-layer solution, it sounds like a good option.

Thoughts?