strange SMSL M500 high 3rd harmonic

[ThomasXia]

M400?

good catch! but for 20kbw it's just normal

 

[liu]

We can see that there are many "Chinese DACs" that perform well in the entire 20-20KHZ THD + N vs Freq measurement.

Hey, this standpoint may be TOTALLY biased.

If optimization of distortion at one specific frequency is at the cost of sacrificing performance at other frequencies. twists can be easily observed in a 20-20KHZ THD + N vs Freq graph as @WolfX-700 said. However it's hard to find this kind of measurements of the top DACs, isn't it?

No. they are for different purposes. amir's 20-20khz thd+n v freq tests are usually done at 90khz bandwidth to show ultra-sonic behavior.
even highest performance dacs usually show ~105 thd+n in 90khz bandwidth. In this case, harmonics < -115 within audio band seldom matter.
but the ranking in the sinad chart will be night and day if a DAC is not intentionally optimized for 1khz.

also, people in asr don't really care about 20-20khz thd+n v freq --- topping's latest d30pro shows super high ultrasonic noise in that graph. but it just doesn't stop people buying them.

Look, there's no reason for Chinese DACs not to optimise for 1khz sinad--- amir's testing flow is public knowledge. they did. and they occupy almost all the top ranks.

 

[JohnYang1997]

No. they are for different purposes. amir's 20-20khz thd+n v freq tests are usually done at 90khz bandwidth to show ultra-sonic behavior.
even highest performance dacs usually show ~105 thd+n in 90khz bandwidth. In this case, harmonics < -115 within audio band seldom matter.
but the ranking in the sinad chart will be night and day if a DAC is not intentionally optimized for 1khz.

Look, there' no reason for Chinese DACs not to optimise 1khz --- amir's testing flow is public knowledge. they did. and they occupy almost all the top ranks.

Be rational or this will probably be your third time being banned.

 

[liu]

Be rational or this will probably be your third time being banned.

I don't really care about manufacture's threats.

 

[ThomasXia]

No. they are for different purposes. amir's 20-20khz thd+n v freq tests are usually done at 90khz bandwidth to show ultra-sonic behavior.
even highest performance dacs usually show ~105 thd+n in 90khz bandwidth. In this case, harmonics < -115 within audio band seldom matter.
but the ranking in the sinad chart will be night and day if a DAC is not intentionally optimized for 1khz.

also, people in asr don't really care about 20-20khz thd+n v freq --- topping's latest d30pro shows super high ultrasonic noise in that graph. but it just doesn't stop people buying them.

Look, there's no reason for Chinese DACs not to optimise for 1khz sinad--- amir's testing flow is public knowledge. they did. and they occupy almost all the top ranks.

Mitigating the issue only needs a 20kbw graph. I'm also hoping that ASR provides one, like L7Audiolab does.

 

[MusicNBeer]

I see a recall/ replace coming!

I don't. I see the mail to China option coming which isn't really an option.

 

[half_dog]

No. they are for different purposes. amir's 20-20khz thd+n v freq tests are usually done at 90khz bandwidth to show ultra-sonic behavior.
even highest performance dacs usually show ~105 thd+n in 90khz bandwidth. In this case, harmonics < -115 within audio band seldom matter.
but the ranking in the sinad chart will be night and day if a DAC is not intentionally optimized for 1khz.

also, people in asr don't really care about 20-20khz thd+n v freq --- topping's latest d30pro shows super high ultrasonic noise in that graph. but it just doesn't stop people buying them.

Look, there's no reason for Chinese DACs not to optimise for 1khz sinad--- amir's testing flow is public knowledge. they did. and they occupy almost all the top ranks.

I thought that THD+N rising was artifact from apodizing filter. I believe the filter chart legend is wrong at DX7 Pro review - or its manual is wrong. The red filter behaves as an apodizing and not as a fast linear according to ES9038PRO manual. Comparing the filter chart from M500 we can observe the legend is different (seems the right one).

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-dx7-pro-dac-and-headphone-amp-reviewed.9446/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-m500-dac-and-hp-amp-review.9606/

 

[liu]

I thought that THD+N rising was artifact from apodizing filter. I believe the filter chart legend is wrong at DX7 Pro review - or its manual is wrong. The red filter behaves as an apodizing and not as a fast linear according to ES9038PRO manual. Comparing the filter chart from M500 we can observe the legend is different (seems the right one).

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-dx7-pro-dac-and-headphone-amp-reviewed.9446/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-m500-dac-and-hp-amp-review.9606/

? we are not talking about m500 and dx7 in the latest conversion.
All I observe is SINAD degraded by 5db at 2khz for SU-9 in Wolf's test.
And my theory is very likely it's optimized for 1khz result, because why not.

 

[3125b]

topping's latest d30pro shows super high ultrasonic noise in that graph. but it just doesn't stop people buying them.

And why would it. Most DACs employ noise shaping, some way more agressive than that.
It's good to be critical, but not to make up issues that just aren't.

 

[liu]

And why would it. Most DACs employ noise shaping, some way more agressive than that.
It's good to be critical, but not to make up issues that just aren't.

All I said is simple fact ---
people don't care about 90khz bandwidth that much, compared to 1khz SINAD.
Otherwise people won't buy D30Pro.
So what's wrong with my statement?

And 5db SINAD difference does mean day and night on the DAC ranking chart.
and there's nothing wrong manufacturers optimize for only 1khz for a higher rank.

So I am just saying the benchmarks done on this site is only partially useful.
It won't tell you the channel issue I showed in this thread.
nor the 5db degrade of SINAD in 2khz.

I see no points in criticizing me in raising these up.
So what's wrong with you in criticizing me "made things up"?
You accusation is just pointless.

 

[3125b]

There is a reason to care about 1kHz SINAD (although not only that of course) but no reason to care about noise shaping somewhere in the ultrasonic frequencies, certainly not at that high a frequency or that low an amplitude as with the D30Pro.
It just does not matter.

 

[Veri]

You can't avoid the noise shaping towards ultrasonics with the Cirrus DAC chip in D30 Pro though. It is inherent to that/those chips. Unless you build some Analog Devices SHARC around it, maybe. But that would be fairly ridiculous.

 

[Jimbob54]

I don't. I see the mail to China option coming which isn't really an option.

That might be the opening gambit. Look to the Topping L30 case.

 

[liu]

You can't avoid the noise shaping towards ultrasonics with the Cirrus DAC chip in D30 Pro though. It is inherent to that/those chips. Unless you build some Analog Devices SHARC around it, maybe. But that would be fairly ridiculous.

People buy a solution, not a chip. I personally don’t care what chip is used. Probably Audiophiles (who johnyang called audiofools) do.

 

[half_dog]

? we are not talking about m500 and dx7 in the latest conversion.
All I observe is SINAD degraded by 5db at 2khz for SU-9 in Wolf's test.
And my theory is very likely it's optimized for 1khz result, because why not.

Oh sorry, I read it too fast and thought you were talking about DX7 PRO - same chip from M500.
Anyway I also quote them because your afirmation over chinese DACs (if the we take a not flawed M500 THD+N vs frequency it does not seem to be optimized for 1khz, it is a nice response). I agree that most people seems to do not care about th THD+N above 20Khz but I don't know how relevant it is for the contents the buyers will be listening to. I am going to confess I have not bough a D30PRO exactly because of the noise shaping

 

[liu]

There is a reason to care about 1kHz SINAD (although not only that of course) but no reason to care about noise shaping somewhere in the ultrasonic frequencies, certainly not at that high a frequency or that low an amplitude as with the D30Pro.
It just does not matter.

That matches my point to a great degree right? 90khz bandwidth is not very useful to show issues in audioband. 1khz is used on this site and people only care about it. ASR does not even test other frequencies in audio band. And that is the issue.

 

[spacevector]

ASR does not even test other frequencies in audio band. And that is the issue.

But most all DAC reviews have the THD+N vs Frequency chart...

 

[liu]

But most all DAC reviews have the THD+N vs Frequency chart...

You don’t read carefully do you?
The key point here is 90khz bandwidth shows little info about how 2khz tone performs in audio band

 

[spacevector]

You don’t read carefully do you?
The key point here is 90khz bandwidth shows little info about how 2khz tone performs in audio band

If the ultrasonic noise dominates the harmonics, true.

 

[TheTalbotHound]

1K vs 2K

Which filter were you using?