Stereophile electrical system improvement article

[Timcognito]

Excellent - off topic, but briefly: how long does the stored power last? Do you get through to the next morning, when the sun comes up?

Yes easily, but I live 300 feet from the Pacific Ocean in Northern California where temperatures are moderate/cool and have a natural gas furnace and a well insulated house with no AC needed. Solar and backup with Federal rebates are on target for six and half year payoff. Also, getting 70-100% of all the days power used.

 

[audio2design]

I have a Tesla whole house backup battery and every night when the sun sets I go on my saved solar power. I can't tell any difference with my audio gear and my ears but would be curious to know if there is a variation in electrical interference. Do any of you people with sophisticated measuring equipment have a backup system to measure? I guess one could try with a UPS. Has that been measured?

My house AC is wonderfully distorted and I expect the impedance on the high end of what it should be. On the plus side, that softens peaks into linear supplies, not that I have any noise issues with my setup. USB isolator and balanced connections with competent equipment fixes most ills and a cheap medical grade isolation transformer on the turntable, mainly to eliminate nuisance noise.

I did have a Sugden amplifier from a friend in my system for a while that was picking up noise even with the balanced connection from the phono amp when appliances turned on/off (prior to transformer). I put that down to a flaw in their balanced input. It was down to about 20-30db common mode rejection at 20KHz, and about 10db at 100KHz. High frequency noise from the appliance on/off would get in and demodulate to audible noise. Perhaps a one off in manufacturing or bad design. I got the transformer as a test-fix, and just kept it.

I expect with the Tesla, there will be less distortion on the AC line, but it could result in higher peak currents on linear supplies if it has lower impedance on the output. Shouldn't be an issue, though some people run multiple lines to their stereo which can induce ground differential and noise with single ended connections.

 

[Timcognito]

My house AC is wonderfully distorted and I expect the impedance on the high end of what it should be. On the plus side, that softens peaks into linear supplies, not that I have any noise issues with my setup. USB isolator and balanced connections with competent equipment fixes most ills and a cheap medical grade isolation transformer on the turntable, mainly to eliminate nuisance noise.

I did have a Sugden amplifier from a friend in my system for a while that was picking up noise even with the balanced connection from the phono amp when appliances turned on/off (prior to transformer). I put that down to a flaw in their balanced input. It was down to about 20-30db common mode rejection at 20KHz, and about 10db at 100KHz. High frequency noise from the appliance on/off would get in and demodulate to audible noise. Perhaps a one off in manufacturing or bad design. I got the transformer as a test-fix, and just kept it.

I expect with the Tesla, there will be less distortion on the AC line, but it could result in higher peak currents on linear supplies if it has lower impedance on the output. Shouldn't be an issue, though some people run multiple lines to their stereo which can induce ground differential and noise with single ended connections.

Thanks for the detailed response. My house remodel resulted in dedicated lines for the media areas. That may be helping me.

 

[Trouble Maker]

It's why I asked. As far as I know multigrounding creates risk for loops and another path for surges to enter the house. Not supposed to have a separate rod for a subpanel, for example.

Having separate grounds all connected to 1 place VS separate grounds connected to separate places are different things right?
You are right as were others earlier in that the NEC says ground must be at service entrance, wherever the main service disconnect is. After that, all grounds should connect (back) to the ground in the main service disconnect.

Both of mine go straight to the outside main disconnect. And the inside main panel is setup like a sub panel; 4 wire (2xmain, neutral and ground) is run from outside main disconnect to the panel. A combined meter outside & disconnect was a small incremental price increase and I can now completely turn off power to the panel when I need to work on it.

This actually spurred me to look outside again. I knew the last cable installer put in a ground I didn't like, but now I realize that either it's non functional or that system is double grounded to (kind of) separate places... that all finally connect so not a huge deal?

Red is original ground for cable (internet), green is 'new' one, you can see their connections with the green and red arrows. It's difficult to see if the green one at the box is even doing anything, the box was originally pained, and painted again with the house paint. I doubt the took the time to scrape all of that off.

For reference, purple is (continuous line through the grounding block) from ground rods to main disconnect. Yellow is from water line to mains disconnect.

Looking at that cable install again, I really hate our last cable installer.
There's a reason I do most of my own work.

 

[krabapple]

I read the article and was surprised that the author (a famous reviewer) didn't have dedicated power for his audio gear from the get-go.

I clicked the article link. saw who the author is, and knew it would be aggressively asserted nonsense.

As far as this latest bit of Fremerism? Essentially, he's recycling nonsense from years back. You can call Fremer a lot of things, but you can't ever call him unique or inventive. The first person I ever read that thought all this ancillary electrical stuff was important was a writer for Harry Pearson's old rag, the Absolute Sound. That was Enid Lumely. I've mentioned her before, but at the time I thought Enid was Harry writing under a pseudonym as a way to make a humorous statement about the often overblown idiocy of the 'high-end'. Until I realized that Enid was a real person, who was serious in her beliefs, and also that Harry was totally humorless. In fact, a lot of 'reviewers' don't seem to have much of a sense of humor, and if you call them on what they write, they often react very angrily.

LOL, *Enid Lumley*. Like you, I thought surely she couldn't be real...until she turned out to be.

IIRC, she was the one who said there must be no metal in a listening room, only wood...?

 

[Robin L]

LOL, *Enid Lumley*. Like you, I thought surely she couldn't be real...until she turned out to be.

IIRC, she was the one who said there must be no metal in a listening room, only wood...?

She's the one who had "proof" that digital recordings on LP damaged [physically] turntables.

 

[blueone]

I clicked the article link. saw who the author is, and knew it would be aggressively asserted nonsense.


LOL, *Enid Lumley*. Like you, I thought surely she couldn't be real...until she turned out to be.

IIRC, she was the one who said there must be no metal in a listening room, only wood...?

Enid Lumley. Ms. Cable Elevators.

 

[audio2design]

She's the one who had "proof" that digital recordings on LP damaged [physically] turntables.

What fresh hell is this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Ingenieur]

Yeah see that's what i meant by there are very different ways to do it around the world.
it can't brake the the service breaker in case of a fault and it can’t ensure a save PE potential in case of a PEN fault.
25oms is only 4.4A

View attachment 161489

View attachment 161490
This compared to "we just hammer some rods in the ground"


Whats the problem with the setup in they did in the video?
What makes you think 2 Ground Rods in this configuration are worse compered to one?

Edit: or did i misunderstand you post?

They have to be bonded to the service panel.
You typically can't have one at the main panel and one at a sub panel.

The ground is not for a typical 'ground' fault. The ground conductor bonded to equipment/outlets/switches is for that.
The G is typically located between the H and N so if the cable is crushed (stapled, damaged) the H should contact one of those and trip.

The primary safety feature is for bodily shock. Say on a wet floor you get energized, the I flows thru your body and thru various paths back to the source.
Hence GFCI that trip on a I/T curve in mS and xx mA.

The body is ~ 1000 Ohm >> 25 Ohm,
So the limiting factor
120 V / 1000 Ohm ~ 120 mA
If not interrupted you will likely go into fibrillation and die.
time = (body wt/I mA)^2
180 lb, 120 mA ~ 2.25 Sec

This guy did most of the basic research, also invented the GFCI
WIKI
Charles Dalziel (1904–1986) was a professor of electrical engineering and computer sciences at UC Berkeley.

He studied the effects of electricity on animals and humans. He wrote The Effects of Electric Shock on Man, a book in which he explains the effects of different amounts of electricity on human subjects. He also invented the ground-fault circuit interrupter or GFCI in 1961.

His paper

https://premierpowerinc.com/docs/Effects_of_Electric_Shock_on_Man.pdf

 

[Robin L]

What fresh hell is this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Old, stale hell. Somewhere in the mid-1980's, Fanfare magazine ["buy an ad, we'll review your record", the only way most vanity press classical records could get reviewed]. Can't recall the fellow's name*, was something of a high priest of new-age audiophilia. Would post some of Enid's musings. First place I heard of the wonders of High-End" speaker interconnect.

Edit:* Neil Levenson

 

[Lambda]

They have to be bonded to the service panel.
You typically can't have one at the main panel and one at a sub panel.

But in the video it looks like they are.

The ground is not for a typical 'ground' fault. The ground conductor bonded to equipment/outlets/switches is for that.
The G is typical between the H and N so if the cable is crush the H should contact one of them and trip.

The primary safety feature is for bodily shock. Say on a wet floor you get energized, the I flow thru your body thru various paths to the source.
Hence GFCI that trip on a I/T curve in mS and Xc mA.

All this gives no protection from the case of a broken PEN Connector.
In this case the Steal rods in his font yawn can become live at mains voltage
And causing a significant step voltage

Earth potential rise - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is why grounding here is normally done over a large area ring (+the basement foundation) and deep underground.
In case PEN fault or lightning strike it might "lift" the potential of your whole house but there is no potential gradient inside.

 

[Ingenieur]

But in the video it looks like they are.


All this gives no protection from the case of a broken PEN Connector.
In this case the Steal rods in his font yawn can become live at mains voltage
And causing a significant step voltage

Earth potential rise - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

this is why grounding here is normally done over a large area ring (+the basement foundation) and deep underground.
In case PEN fault or lightning strike it might "lift" the potential of your whole house but there is no potential gradient inside.

You edited my quote:
I was responding to a question whether separate rods are code.

"It is a code violation. He may have bonded them all together, although the article is hard the decipher."

As I said he likely bonded them. In the article initially separated, then later bonded.

The rod will not be at line V, it will be 0, it is grounded. Step potential will be distributed over the distance to the fault. If 50', a few V/ft. Likely less since the gradient will radial. 2 V over 2' step is 4 mA, you may not feel it. Even if you took line directly to the rod it still would be at 0 V. And depending on conditions, trip the branch, main or xfmr fuse.

Ever hear of a corner grounded delta?

None of that is a legitimate concern.
In the US new construction the slab is bonded.
Even if it is not it is bonded via earth.

My industry requires 2 isolated beds 50' apart both below 4 Ohm.
If I measure between them <2 Ohm
Bonded via earth.

 

[Ingenieur]

I learned one thing: in 30 years: we are our own worst enemy.

I recently wrote the technical portion of an
Industrial ground fault protection law. I researched all industrial electrocution fatalities since 1990.
>95% common cause
Failure to lockout/tagout/verify absence of V
Apprentice to master level
Over confidence, carelessness, time rush
Residential is the same.

These systems do not protect you from Mother Nature...they protect you from yourself.

As far as his work:
Did he pull a permit?
Was it inspected?

In my parts if you pull the meter only up to the meter is inspected by the utility.

For the scope of work he did even in my small town you must submit drawings for a permit. The exception is limited scope if performed by you with no professional help: light fixtures, a new receptacle, not service wiring, no new circuits.

 

[bigguyca]

Depending on your electrical system

In case TN-CS if PEN brakes A low resistance local earth is all that protects you from all of your appliances becoming live at about mains voltage.
In Germany a house like this would have 3*200A service in the US since its only halve and only Single phase i would assume its about 2*400A?

In this case of the video i think the flimsy Grounding with the tow sticks and the thin wire is ridiculous.
Even if it has 0.7Ohms. on a 200A service this would not be enough to tripe the barker

In the U.S., outside grounds, that is rods driven into the ground or use of the foundation steel, are to protect against external electric threats to the house, such as surges from lightning strikes. The grounds are not installed to provide safety inside the house.

For an overview, in the U.S. circuit breakers provide primary safety based on a current time curve, with ground fault interrupters providing secondary protection. The external ground does not play a part in any of this. Recently arc fault detector devices have been added to the protection. The arc fault devices also do not depend on the exterior grounds.

In general, people in the U.S., where I live, have no idea of how any of this works, or based on forums such as this one, have the wrong idea. Fortunately this ignorance is generally OK, since the electric power system has become quite idiot proof.

If you live outside the U.S. your electrical safety system design may be different and likely is, just as your voltages and electirc frequencies differ. The address of the folks who prepare the National Electric Code for the U.S. can be found online. I'm sure they would be happy to get your suggestions. The NEC code is revised every three years. Various localities then gradually adapt the code, sometimes with changes, both good and bad.

 

[pozz]

I think we've pretty much said all that needs to be said.

For design of electrical systems for audio, the two main references IMO are Bill Whitlock and Philip Giddings.

 

[audio2design]

this is why grounding here is normally done over a large area ring (+the basement foundation) and deep underground.
In case PEN fault or lightning strike it might "lift" the potential of your whole house but there is no potential gradient inside.

I am not sure what you mean by "potential gradient inside". Inside where?

Let's say the Ground/Neutral connection at the panel is not broken: If my body is "earthed" somehow, and I touch live, I am still going to get a shock.

Let's say the Ground/ Neutral is broken: As above, if my body is "earthed" somehow, and I touch live, again of course I get a shock. If I touch neutral, I will get a shock, but how big of a shock? The neutral may not be bonded to earth at my house, but it is bonded to earth at the distribution transformer. In order for their to be a voltage differential from my home "earth" to the distribution transformer "earth", current needs to be flowing in earth. Normally that would be low, so there will not be a huge differential. You will get a buzz, but much safer than touching live.

In the German system you describe, I don't see any real reduction in shock hazard. The current through my body killed me long before any breaker (non GFI) tripped.

In a distribution system, a low resistance is needed as you could be dealing with large fault currents through earth. How does that happen in a residential system?

(FYI, the 25 and 5 ohm "standards" come from the days of telegraphs and telephone systems where earth was used as a conductor -- What is their true modern meaning?)

Was reading an article about 6 months ago on earthing and bonding. It was found that bonding (ensuring every piece of metal is all bonded together and connected to neutral/ground) was far more important w.r.t. safety than the earth connection.

 

[Ingenieur]

Some context:
Almost 100% electrification
US population 330 million
Households 250 million
Heavy industry
Much commercial
Per capita consumption over twice other industrialized nations.

We have about 400 deaths per year
Most of these are industrial work on power systems. By not following rules.


Car accidents 38,000, injuries 10X
Falls 40,000 per year
Accidental poisoning 65,000
Drug overdose 80,000
At the peak Covid killed more than 10 years worth of fatal electrocutions in ONE DAY.

Our systems are safe and continuously improving. It is not an issue, but a concern being addressed.

May is National Electrical Safety Month! - Brubaker, Inc.

Learn about how you can better protect yourself from electric shock or electrocution.

www.brubakerinc.com

Statistics tell us that there are over 400 electrocutions and over 4000 non-fatal injuries every year in the United States.

 

[Ingenieur]

Depending on your electrical system

In case TN-CS if PEN brakes A low resistance local earth is all that protects you from all of your appliances becoming live at about mains voltage.
In Germany a house like this would have 3*200A service in the US since its only halve and only Single phase i would assume its about 2*400A?

In this case of the video i think the flimsy Grounding with the tow sticks and the thin wire is ridiculous.
Even if it has 0.7Ohms. on a 200A service this would not be enough to tripe the barker

The 20 A branch would trip.
Many appliances have internal protection also. Fuse, CB, double insulation.

 

[Charles E Flynn]

Thanks! We used a bunch of pigtails decades ago when I was doing electrical service work (as an apprentice electrician). Didn't remember the word "COPALUM".

You are welcome.

This was the part I found most interesting:

The COPALUM connector is a specially designed system that includes a metal sleeve intended to be installed only with a dedi- cated power tool and crimping die to make a permanent connection, that is, in effect,
a cold weld (the precision dies in the CO- PALUM tool compress the connector and wires using upwards of 10,000 pounds of force, as required to make the permanent aluminum wire connection).

 

[Robin L]

Someone at ASR reposts Mikey's puffery about re-wiring his circuit breaker, 20 licensed electrical engineers pop out of the woodwork to show how its done in the real world.

Gotta love this place.