Step Response: Does It Really Matter?

[watchnerd]

Relatively, yes. But I should think FIR can slide things earlier or later however the filter is designed.

Hey! Wait a minute... This was Step Response Inquiry:

Raw

View attachment 9362

Martin Logan + subs correction:

View attachment 9363

JBL LSR 308 corrrection. (might be inverted)

View attachment 9364

My complete naive interpretation:

The sub drivers seem to be wiggling around a big after the signal, i.e. not stopping super quick?

I can't interpret the 308 one at all....

 

[RayDunzl]

So I gather you're not a person who obsesses about pre-ringing?

The ringing frequency is, correct me. 1/2 nyquist. Look at the posts above, the dots are samples, pre-ring is up-down-up-down on the sample value.

I don't hear that high (never never ever ever have), or even half that high, and probably not even as high as half of that. I blame Mom, who had a hard time even with the old telephone ringers.

I may have the worst HF frequency hearing of anyone here.

I initially liked panels because I thought the highs sounded better to me. 2/3 ways? Is this tweeter working? Can't tell, sometimes.

 

[RayDunzl]

My complete naive interpretation:

The sub drivers seem to be wiggling around a big after the signal, i.e. not stopping super quick?

I can't interpret the 308 one at all....

There are no drivers in these graphs.

They are all preamp electrical output signal (raw, and corrected) of sine log sweeps, 10Hz-20kHz.

 

[RayDunzl]

Step correction again, more time:

Raw (uncorrected):

Martin Logan correction:

JBL LSR 308 correction (inverted?):

 

[DonH56]

Couple of comments:

Note the phase relationship between woofer and tweeter in the ESL system is likely much more a function of the crossover than any "speed" differences between woofer and tweeter driver.

Distance between ears equates to ~5 microseconds, not milliseconds, pretty sure that was a typo from a sleep-deprived JJ.

BTW, great to see @j_j here!

 

[watchnerd]

The ringing frequency is, correct me. 1/2 nyquist. Look at the posts above, the dots are samples, pre-ring is up-down-up-down on the sample value.

Right, but that doesn't stop all sorts of people from obsessing over it and buying expensive, anachronistic filter-less DACs, NOS DACs, or buying DACs with multiple filter choices to experiment with.

I may have the worst HF frequency hearing of anyone here.

I doubt it. Uncorrected, I score as exhibiting profound deafness well into the midrange and missing most of the bass. In an audiologist test, my tympanic membrane basically doesn't move under the standard tests due to ruined eustachian tubes. Without hearing aids, I hear mainly via bone conduction, lip reading, and apparently a lot of psychoacoustic fill-in from when I used to have full hearing. I also do okay in small enclosures at higher than normal volumes (e.g. inside a car, audio cranked up higher than normal).

However, because my issue is physical and not nerve degeneration, I can be corrected to above normal hearing acuity for my age. Some of my hearing aids actually link to my iPhone and can provide in-room acoustic correction from what the iPhone mic hears, which can give a weird sort of super hearing.

 

[watchnerd]

There are no drivers in these graphs.

They are all preamp electrical output signal (raw, and corrected) of sine log sweeps, 10Hz-20kHz.

Facepalm.

 

[watchnerd]

Step correction again, more time:

Raw (uncorrected):

View attachment 9366

Martin Logan correction:

View attachment 9365

JBL LSR 308 correction (inverted?):

View attachment 9367

Are these corrections meant to correct the response at, say 1m, or at the listening position?

 

[RayDunzl]

In an audiologist test

I haven't had a test since the Army turned me down.

Induction Sgt: Dunzl!
RayDunzl: Huh?

But, my hearing seems (at least to me) to be quite normal up to the cutoff range.

I listen with a buddy with normal hearing there's plenty of agreement on what was playing.

So...

I don't plan to be tested (other than me checking myself) to avoid disappointment or other bias.

 

[RayDunzl]

re these corrections meant to correct the response at, say 1m, or at the listening position?

Everything I do is at listening position (default), unless otherwise noted. That's where I listen (critically). Right now, casual, behind and to the right, of the "listening position".

The DSP is "correcting" for the mains full range plus the subs (outbaord of the mains), or for the JBL's sitting on top of the subs, but not using the subs. They do quite well alone. So do the mains, but with subs is a little nicer down low.

My mic is on top of the couch, loosely velcro'd so as to retain a calculated centered equidistant point at the center of my head were my head there instead.

The corrections are for the listening position.

I suppose they do include "drivers" - since the correction is based on the measurement of what the drivers sent to the listening position to create the filters, the effect of which on the subsequent signals are shown above..

 

[Cosmik]

Partially...but with crosstalk and somatic components.

So I guess some sort of phased array would be your ideal speaker..? Horizontal and vertical dispersion could be controlled as required. In effect it could project the dry recording as much as possible to the listening position, with resulting text book step response possible at the listening position. Normal panel speakers beam at higher frequencies which would partially achieve the goal..?

For me, I think I want more of the room than that - but not going so far as omnidirectional. Ordinary box speakers are good IMO, but I would like to have a listen to Kii-style controlled bass dispersion, which I have still failed to do so far...

 

[watchnerd]

So I guess some sort of phased array would be your ideal speaker..? Horizontal and vertical dispersion could be controlled as required. In effect it could project the dry recording as much as possible to the listening position, with resulting text book step response possible at the listening position. Normal panel speakers beam at higher frequencies which would partially achieve the goal..?

Partially....I lived with panel speakers, ML electrostatics (2 different models), for over a decade. They do a lot of things you mention really well.

But I find myself moving away from preferring them because they can't pressurize a room like dynamic speakers can and I find that to be more important to my enjoyment than I would have thought.

Not sure what room pressurization has to do with step response, though...

 

[RayDunzl]

Distance between ears equates to ~5 microseconds, not milliseconds, pretty sure that was a typo from a sleep-deprived JJ.

I may be sleep-deprived myself, and may be answering the wrong question, but if we are talking 6 inches then around .5 milliseconds (500 micro) seems more appropriate.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Partially....I lived with panel speakers, ML electrostatics (2 different models), for over a decade. They do a lot of things you mention really well.

But I find myself moving away from preferring them because they can't pressurize a room like dynamic speakers can and I find that to be more important to my enjoyment than I would have thought.

Not sure what room pressurization has to do with step response, though...

I am not quite sure what pressurization of the room really means, other than max sound levels, dynamic range and low frequency extension. Having been loyal to MLs over many years, I did find some of them "polite" and lacking in some of the above qualities.

But, that was no longer true once I installed a good subwoofer together with Room EQ. Now, I have little to complain about, even with just one sub in my system. Interestingly, you do not really hear that the sub is there until you take it and the crossover to it away. Big difference. Also, with it, it will now play waaaay louder than I ever want to listen without any obvious signs of dynamic compression before I need to turn it down.

Room EQ is also helpful in dealing with frequency smoothness at the listening position, such as midbass floor bounce cancellation, prevalent with many speakers, including dynamic ones.

 

[watchnerd]

I am not quite sure what pressurization of the room really means, other than max sound levels, dynamic range and low frequency extension. Having been loyal to MLs over many years, I did find some of them "polite" and lacking in some of the above qualities.

All of that, plus somatic impact, feeling notes in musical power curve in the body and in the surrounding objects (feeling my couch vibrate, for example). Tympanis that are felt as much as heard.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

All of that, plus somatic impact, feeling notes in musical power curve in the body and in the surrounding objects (feeling my couch vibrate, for example). Tympanis that are felt as much as heard.

True, but that seems about proper bass response, which is what subwoofers plus room EQ can do.

 

[watchnerd]

True, but that seems about proper bass response, which is what subwoofers plus room EQ can do.

But there's the rub...if I need more dynamic drivers to make the electrostatic sound right, what's the point of having the electrostatic?

 

[DonH56]

I may be sleep-deprived myself, and may be answering the wrong question, but if we are talking 6 inches then around .5 milliseconds (500 micro) seems more appropriate.

Yah, I need to just give up, too much work and too little sleep...

At 1127 ft/sec or 13,524 inches/sec and figure about maybe 7" then about 520 us or 0.5 ms.

 

[DonH56]

But there's the rub...if I need more dynamic drivers to make the electrostatic sound right, what's the point of having the electrostatic?

I wouldn't say "to sound right"; the panels will sound "right" within their frequency and excursion range. The panels handle the upper frequencies where less power is required and thus less excursion, plus have narrower dispersion (more directive, sans the approaches taken by Quad or ML to counter that effect), and the subs take over when lots of power/excursion/SPL is needed. Many people prefer the sound of those big panels and they cover the lower mid/upper bass where most of the directional sound exists anyway. Rolling over to the sub often occurs below the frequency at which it is localizable (if that's a word) so the transition should go unnoticed in a well set up system.

That said, one issue I have had with many hybrid ESLs is that the transition to a conventional driver is high enough that the image is noticeably changed for the lower midrange/upper bass.

 

[watchnerd]

I wouldn't say "to sound right"; the panels will sound "right" within their frequency and excursion range. The panels handle the upper frequencies where less power is required and thus less excursion, plus have narrower dispersion (more directive, sans the approaches taken by Quad or ML to counter that effect), and the subs take over when lots of power/excursion/SPL is needed. Many people prefer the sound of those big panels and they cover the lower mid/upper bass where most of the directional sound exists anyway. Rolling over to the sub often occurs below the frequency at which it is localizable (if that's a word) so the transition should go unnoticed in a well set up system.

That said, one issue I have had with many hybrid ESLs is that the transition to a conventional driver is high enough that the image is noticeably changed for the lower midrange/upper bass.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my decade of electrostatic listening. I could even argue that owning panel speakers at some point is a necessary right of passage for a serious audio enthusiast.

But after futzing with them and placement and EQ and subs for years, I think I have a handle on their strengths and weaknesses, I'm ready to move in another direction -- which, will of course, expose me to a different set of strength and weaknesses and I'll bemoan that X speaker doesn't do Y as well as electrostats.

Ultimately, though, I'm becoming less of an audiophile. I have less time and patience for tinkering, I want fewer boxes, fewer speakers, fewer cables, fewer magic gizmos, etc. I just want to come home from work, decompress, and, for an hour or two, listen to some good music on a good system while avoiding audiophile nervosa.

Luckily, the bar for 'good system' (enjoyable, without horrible defect, although not state of the art) has come way, way down in cost and complexity from what it was decades ago. I'm ready to embrace that and simplify, which is why my new system is being built around an all-in-one electronics box based around Roon streaming, a turntable, and 2 speakers. Everything else is in software.

Edit: added Roon's role