Standmounts or Floorstander for this room

[newerror]

Hi there,

I'm a newbie trying to compile my new hifi setup. What I struggle most is WAF and decision on floorstanders or standmount speakers. They would be placed about 3m in distance from each other as well as roughly 2.8m from listening position. We plan to do the whole front wall new so a new sideboard will be coming on the lift we will ad a bookshelf and also some heavy curtain in front of the window. I do now that the corner situation is not good for speakers, but I really have no other option with kids and cats.

I did run a trial with a Lyngdorf-3400 and some Sonus Faber Olympica II. I placed them left and right of the sideboard which looked a bit awkward since they're just too close to each other and we anyway want to redo that wall and get a larger sideboard and get the left speaker closer to the left wall. Sound quality was bit underwhelming even though I had only little time to do measurements with the Lyngdorf but definitely heard a huge impact and a very clear bass.

Room Specs:
- 4x5m2 =ca. 20m2 in the Sofa/TV area, but it's just a port of the living room that has roughly 65m2.
- Large window (will get a heavy curtain) and mostly dry wall or brick wall.

My questions:
1) Do you think the room is large enough for floor standers or would I profit more from standmounts and a sub soundwise?
2) When I did room correction in the room with Room Perfect, Bass got very precise, but almost no changes to mids and highs is this normal? I mean I have a large glass window, corner situation etc.
3) Do you think I can get control. of the corner situation aswell with a Dirac setup (MiniDSP Flex), as I am just not very convinced by the natural sound of the Lyngdorf 3400 when compared (in store) with some McIntosh and Hegel gear.

Thank you for your thoughts,
Fabian

 

[Deleted member 21114]

The ideal position for your speakers will usually not be the best position for the best bass performance. For example, a corner is often the best place for bass but is poor for midrange and treble. Whether you choose floorstander or bookshelf speakers, a sub (ideally two or three) will give you the best bass.

Reading Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms before you buy anything would be very worthwhile.

 

[newerror]

The ideal position for your speakers will usually not be the best position for the best bass performance. For example, a corner is often the best place for bass but is poor for midrange and treble. Whether you choose floorstander or bookshelf speakers, a sub (ideally two or three) will give you the best bass.

Reading Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms before you buy anything would be very worthwhile.

Hi Marquee

I may not read all of the 500+ pages, but it definitely sparked my interest. I already managed to convice my wife to remove the doore and close it up to get one wall. This would allow for much more symmetric placement and more distance from corner resp. similar distance to both walls. Will definitely also consider subs. But even with subs would you mean that DSP would help a lot? For sub integration and room correction?

 

[Deleted member 21114]

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

This paper is a good source, especially the conclusions at the end.
The basic idea is to put multiple subs in a room and then EQ them to get an even response. If you only want good sound in a single seat or you don't mind large room treatments there are other methods, but for a practical room that isn't just devoted to audio this is the best way. EQ is 100% necessary for good sound and there are many ways it can be implemented (manually with something like MiniDSP, various flavours of Dirac, Audyssey etc.).
If you choose your Hifi as well as you have chosen your wife, you will do well!

 

[bodhi]

From all practical things you can do, room correction probably provides the most audible improvement. It's not like EQing to a taste e.g. "add a little air in the treble": in smaller rooms it's more like taming completely bonkers frequency response with 15dB peaks.

Floorstanders mostly provide more SPL and lower bass response when not using a subwoofer. With a subwoofer neither of those is a concern.

Without subwoofer(s) you just have to accept any nulls in the response, EQ can't fix that. With subwoofers located in different position in the room the modes usually get smoothed out, peaks you can EQ down.

In a listening room of that size there really aren't objective reasons to go with floorstanders. Then again, if you can spend 10k to speakers you can afford to pay a bit for aesthetics.

 

[wunderkind]

Photo #1 & #3: Speaker next to the door is just a bad idea. It is also not symmetrically spaced. The other speaker is way too close by the corner. Floorstanders need space to "run free". If this is what you have to work with, perhaps some 2-way bookshelves might work better. It's also less "in your face" set up.

Photo #2: I was about to suggest that you flip the HT setup to the opposite wall, however there appears to be a heat radiator there. I could be mistaken, but the TV seems a bit high. From your sitting position, you will have to tilt your head up which may result in neck pain over time. I think websites like Rting have guides for TV optimal heights.

You have an interesting problem here. Due to mixed use space and WAF, be ok for some compromises. Judging from the myriad of kiddie toys, perhaps you might want to hold off on $$$ sound system for now.
That's one cuddly looking cat you got there.

 

[newerror]

Photo #1 & #3: Speaker next to the door is just a bad idea. It is also not symmetrically spaced. The other speaker is way too close by the corner. Floorstanders need space to "run free". If this is what you have to work with, perhaps some 2-way bookshelves might work better. It's also less "in your face" set up.

Photo #2: I was about to suggest that you flip the HT setup to the opposite wall, however there appears to be a heat radiator there. I could be mistaken, but the TV seems a bit high. From your sitting position, you will have to tilt your head up which may result in neck pain over time. I think websites like Rting have guides for TV optimal heights.

You have an interesting problem here. Due to mixed use space and WAF, be ok for some compromises. Judging from the myriad of kiddie toys, perhaps you might want to hold off on $$$ sound system for now.
That's one cuddly looking cat you got there.

We decided to wall up the door as it is only a second entrance into the living room without critical function. This would give us a completely new perspective that allows to place the speakers freely on a range of 4.9 meters (16 feet). So I can be much more symmetrical and have a good distance of 60 centimeters to the corner. That would allow my wife and make much improvement to the sound. Also I will get some curtains for the full side of the window wall. That way anyway a wish from my wife.

What I still would like to understand. Is there an audible difference between floorstander or stand mount regarding the body of the sound. I really have no experience with subs in hifi besides my boomy sub for my home cinema 20 years ago. I am looking for this full bodied sound that I could listen with floor standers also with piano, vocals etc. Just that feel of more room and space. Is this also achievable with say 2 nice bookshelves and 2 subs?

 

[newerror]

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

This paper is a good source, especially the conclusions at the end.
The basic idea is to put multiple subs in a room and then EQ them to get an even response. If you only want good sound in a single seat or you don't mind large room treatments there are other methods, but for a practical room that isn't just devoted to audio this is the best way. EQ is 100% necessary for good sound and there are many ways it can be implemented (manually with something like MiniDSP, various flavours of Dirac, Audyssey etc.).
If you choose your Hifi as well as you have chosen your wife, you will do well!

Thank you again. Did scroll through it. Very interesting, however I'm not sure if my wife would allow for 4 subs even though with our move to brick up that door, we could achieve such a placement. Also besides the sofa there's enough space. How would I connect 4 subs to an integrated? Via Splitter or 2 minidsps?

 

[newerror]

From all practical things you can do, room correction probably provides the most audible improvement. It's not like EQing to a taste e.g. "add a little air in the treble": in smaller rooms it's more like taming completely bonkers frequency response with 15dB peaks.

Floorstanders mostly provide more SPL and lower bass response when not using a subwoofer. With a subwoofer neither of those is a concern.

Without subwoofer(s) you just have to accept any nulls in the response, EQ can't fix that. With subwoofers located in different position in the room the modes usually get smoothed out, peaks you can EQ down.

In a listening room of that size there really aren't objective reasons to go with floorstanders. Then again, if you can spend 10k to speakers you can afford to pay a bit for aesthetics.

I clearly did hear that when I tried the Lyngdorf TDAI3400 with that corner setup and the Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 2. But it somehow sounded a bit off - I did only short measurements and no distance configuration for speakers etc. Therefore I decieded to really change the room as I think even with room correction and awesome filter, it gets easier to have great sound when reducing the change of frequencies getting wiped out in the corner.

What I still don't understand: Is there a notable difference between floorstander and bookshelv w. subs regarding the full bodied sound or is it just psychoacoustics? I mean speaking of a normal sized bookshelv such as Focal Sopra 1 or Paradigm B w. sub vs. Sopra 2 or Paradigm 3F.

 

[fernando.yang]

Thank you again. Did scroll through it. Very interesting, however I'm not sure if my wife would allow for 4 subs even though with our move to brick up that door, we could achieve such a placement. Also besides the sofa there's enough space. How would I connect 4 subs to an integrated? Via Splitter or 2 minidsps?

A single MiniDSP Flex Eight, HT or HTX can handle and tune multiple subs.

Multi-Sub Tuning Basics

Tuning multiple subwoofers with miniDSP processor + REW + MSO.

www.minidsp.com

 

[Deleted member 21114]

A minidsp 2×4 has four outs or the thomann t.racks dsp thingy Amir reviewed.

Floorstanders *should* be able to give more bass, more efficiency, less distortion etc. but it completely depends on the design. Personally I like floorstanders because you don't have to buy stands. The most important thing is that the speaker can be position at the right height. If a floorstander is too tall you'll have to buy a taller couch!
Also, I'm personally happy with one sub, I have a shallow dip around 80Hz, but it only bothers me when I look at the graphs.

 

[bodhi]

What I still don't understand: Is there a notable difference between floorstander and bookshelv w. subs regarding the full bodied sound or is it just psychoacoustics? I mean speaking of a normal sized bookshelv such as Focal Sopra 1 or Paradigm B w. sub vs. Sopra 2 or Paradigm 3F.

I have been pondering the same for a while. I kind of want to replace my R5s, which are basically bookshelves in tower form, but I just haven't found any evidence suggesting that would do any good. I feel like my Genelecs with 8" woofers have something more in upper bass, but as soon as I really try to A/B them the feeling almost disappears.

I think the main problem is if your bookshelves just don't play that low, such as KEF LS50, then you have to cross over pretty high and that can cause suboptimal integration, maybe. This is not a problem with the bookshelves you mentioned.

 

[wunderkind]

We decided to wall up the door as it is only a second entrance into the living room without critical function. This would give us a completely new perspective that allows to place the speakers freely on a range of 4.9 meters (16 feet). So I can be much more symmetrical and have a good distance of 60 centimeters to the corner. That would allow my wife and make much improvement to the sound. Also I will get some curtains for the full side of the window wall. That way anyway a wish from my wife.

What I still would like to understand. Is there an audible difference between floorstander or stand mount regarding the body of the sound. I really have no experience with subs in hifi besides my boomy sub for my home cinema 20 years ago. I am looking for this full bodied sound that I could listen with floor standers also with piano, vocals etc. Just that feel of more room and space. Is this also achievable with say 2 nice bookshelves and 2 subs?

Ahh walling up the door space will certainly improve your configuration options greatly!

Similar adage of cars apply... there's no replacement for displacement. Assuming speakers are of similar quality, floorstanders offer fuller sound and smoother transition into lower frequency subs compared to bookshelves. There appear to be a lot of numbers game that mfgs put out these days. Best to trial them or ensure good return policies.
That said in a small area, folks would be hard pressed to tell the difference b/t floorstanders vs bookshelves in general unless under critical listening situation.

I don't recall you planning to build out a stereo HT or a multi-channel HT.

 

[Zapper]

All practical concern aside, the best place for the speakers is the right side with the big window. They will be firing down the long axis, so the back wall reflections will be far away. I find the sound is much better when I'm far from the back wall.

When comparing standmounts and towers of very similar design - take the KEF R3 and R7 as examples (both 3-way) - they will sound very similar except when driven hard with low bass. With a subwoofer, that difference will be even smaller. On the other hand, all you save with a standmount is a bit of money. The space is about the same, unless you place them on furniture. And a standmount can be a hazard to children and pets if not bolted to a heavy stand.