Unlike this fiasco. Plastic bicycle. It broke pretty much immediately. That the manufacturer did not test them before they started mass production is a mystery. As many as 30,000 absolute junk bikes were made.There is a similar maxim in the bicycle world from one of the greatest designers of the modern bicycle,
Keith Bontrager is from a great biking nation : California , USA. His name appears on most things that go with Trek bikes. This legend in modern bike world created some of the most innovative designs in mountain bikes. During the late eighties and early nineties his Santa Cruz made bikes were highly desired due to their quick handling and unique designs. Holed-up in his garage, he worked on broken cycle parts for hours and hours to learn the defects and to develop some of the best components and frames for the bike-world.
Keith Bontrager’s famous aphorism: “Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick Two” stands the test of times.
Yes, I can pick a strong and light bicycle, and then I cannot get it cheap. I can pick a light cycle and which is cheap, then I cannot have it strong. I can pick a strong cycle which is also cheap, if so, I cannot get it light !
What about (desktop) DACs and AVRs? Are those in scope as well? For the latter it’s sadly needed!So I keep running into companies who send me products with best intentions but miss key aspects that cause me to not recommend. And example is a very nice dongle I recently received that had balanced output but was limited to just 2 volts out. If you don't know, I like to see minimum of 4 volts out from such a port as otherwise, you can find unbalanced dongles at lower cost that do that.
Another example is channel balance issue with had with an AIYIMA amp where there was almost 1 dB differential.
Yet another is expected SINAD for an amplifier. Yes, we don't rate amps on that one number but if SINAD is say, 60 dB, the rest are going to follow.
In many cases decision makers are not knowledgeable in these companies so proudly show me the gear, only then realizing they could have built something better, but didn't.
Note that my focus here is for electronics only. And I am thinking about the fewest key criteria that passes the "acceptable" mark from me, and by implication, from you all. They can do better of course to get higher praise but want to establish what we like to see.
An example for a dongle:
Output voltage: at least 2 volts on unbalanced, 4 volts on balanced.
SINAD: 100 dB or better, 1 kHz, 22.4 kHz bandwidth
SNR at 50mv: 85 dB (?)
SNR at full 2/4 volt output: 110 dB (?)
Output impedance < 1 ohm
Example for Amplifier:
SINAD >= 80 dB
SNR >= 110 dB (?)
Channel balance < 0.5 dB
Crosstalk > 70 dB @20 kHz
This would be presented as general guidelines for companies to adopt (or not). The point of this thread is not to discuss the specifics although you can, but determine if it is time for us to do this. Hate to have companies ready to produce performant products based on objective measurements but not know clearly what those measurements should be.
What say you?
Back in the day I longed for a HiFi satisfying DIN45500. My DUAL HS31 turntable/amp/speaker combo was 2W short of the 6W continuous required. Not sure about distortion. Discussed upgrading the power supply with my physics teacher. Must habe been 1970 or so.German standard for HiFi is DIN45500...
But "Audible" can be measured in a dozen ways.3. Criteria that make equipment distortion and noise below audible threshold. These are absolute benchmarks. If a machine meets this, there is no way under any circumstance there will be any artifact introduced by the equipment. This is for the consumer ‘s peace of mind. No more urge to purchase new gear.
In reality, given that amps, speakers and room acoustics are orders of magnitude worse than a Dac, for most of us, SINADs do not need to be 120dB. Exceeding these specs (in my eyes at least) just gets you bragging rights.
The benchmarks in group 2 (ie these are the minimum specs you should meet) should be clearly below and distinct from group 3.
Sorry Amir, getting confused from what I am reading. Are you saying what the required spec of the product needs such that ASR can do a standardize measurement or are you saying what is the minimum measured performance ASR are expecting for a product to be an adequate and competently designed product?No, I am asking if we should announce what our expectations are with respect to measured performance. What those specs are would be the second phase after we answer that question.
The counter to this is that Amir's recommendations are mostly objective, based on measurements. The cleanest way to keep recommendations from being messy is to base them ONLY on measurements. Electrical & audio science standards that are met or exceeded. Standards tend to fail as soon as subjective thinking muddies the water. If someone likes the way a unit looks or is a fan of the company or price, or willing to overlook a standard not being met, they'll buy it. ASR's role, in my opinion, is to give some concrete scientific basis to those making purchase, and manufacturing, decisions. And by concrete, I mean the stuff that Amir's expensive equipment measures. No listening. No admiring the art. Just the facts.I'm all for documenting the exact conditions of the tests, as well as, the AP project files in one, easy to find, place on ASR.
Beyond that, defining some levels that a device must meet to be on the "recommended list" is likely to be counterproductive and will be misused. A recommendation is a subjective call, and just because something meets your minimum set of measurements doesn't mean it'll be good or bad for someone else. A 60dB SINAD that's dominated by distortion just might be perfectly fine for some, while others may prefer 120dB, even if they can't hear the difference. Certainly post the comparison/example charts for already measured devices, so the manufacturers can gauge where their device might fall relative to others. But drawing a line in the sand between recommended and not recommended is... not recommended
Hi Amir,This would be presented as general guidelines for companies to adopt (or not). The point of this thread is not to discuss the specifics although you can, but determine if it is time for us to do this. Hate to have companies ready to produce performant products based on objective measurements but not know clearly what those measurements should be.
What say you?
I sincerely hope that this does not happen for a long, long time. Given that ASR has now set the standard for excellence in Audio - Journalism, I suspect that they do have a plan of succession, either formally or informally. Your post reminds me of an old French saying : 'The graveyards of the world are littered with the bones of irreplacable men'.What happens if he departs? Is there a plan in place for sustainability?