Speakers that produce astonishing soundstaging/imaging?

[changster]

My audio journey revolves around two keywords: Soundstage and imaging. My first real speakers were Focal Aria 926 (3 way floor standers) with Purifi 1ET400A power amp and RME ADI 2 DAC as preamp and DAC. Signal comes Flac, dsd or TIDAL via Jriver or Roon. I sold Focal Aria and had backup bookshelf's Sonus Faber Veneer 1.5 which were hooked up to main system. I remembered when I first played Sonus Fabers in small room they sounded unpleasant, but now with my living room they were surprisingly good.

I followed a New Record Day guide "L.O.T.S. Loudspeaker Optimization Techniques for Soundstage!"

After moving the speakers around in the room along the guide, the soundstage really came alive, like never before - the tightly focused centre image, clearly noticeable positions between two speakers etc etc. Downside is that wife didn't allow to keep the speakers so far out from the wall.

My reason to sell Focals was to built a LXmini speakers designed by Siegfried Linkwitz. Now my LXmini is ready and they outplay my previous speaker by far. Soundstage is so satisfying, it feels that sound emerges from precise points between the speakers or it is like a wall of sound. With previous speakers, when source was playing only L or R side, I felt that the sound is directly coming from speaker, this is not a case with LXmini - the speaker just disappears.

In short. 2 take away point: follow the New Record Day speaker placement guide and investigate LXmini speakers.

I have the LXSirius (LX Mini's from the official store) with .2 sub and it's fantastic. I also have the 521.4 in the living room and the scale it throws is amazing, even compared with the LXSirius/Mini. I have measured the mini, and the wideband mid is nice but unfortunately there just isn't the detail without a tweeter. If you get the chance, build yourself a 521.4!

 

[changster]

Excuse the horrible picture and mess, but I just took a cell phone photo for this thread.

https://flic.kr/p/2nxQUe7
The soundstage on these Linkwitz 521.4 speakers is super deep and wide in my living room. I have the speakers on the horizontal side of the room so that it has plenty of space behind and in front of the speakers as well as the listening position. Basically the TV is on the left wall (you can't see it) and the couch on the right.

A picture tells a thousand words so they say. The soundstage in my setup pretty much starts at where the dining table is in the back. It's about 2-3 meters behind the speakers. It's freakin amazing. In my system the imaging, focus, and separation is also just pinpoint and where it needs to be. I say this from testing with a proper reference test disc. I have used this disc on multiple systems (cars and various home systems) and it is great. You guys should download the EMMA 2022 test disc where it has L/R/C/LC/RC tracks as well as this awesome waterfall moving track (track 7). You can buy it here: https://emmanetshop.com/downloads/emma-high-resolution-music-2022.html

Again, excuse the mess as I didn't prepare for the photoshoot, lol.

My system is the turnkey Linkwitz 521.4 system from the Linkwitz store. Here I'm using a FIIO M17 as just the interface with its digital coaxial output into a MiniDSP Flex with Dirac Live into the fully active 10 channel Hypex based amps. I also have the RME ADI-2 Pro Fs but prefer the MiniDSP not because of the sound but because of the ease of use, Dirac, etc.

I auditioned MBL 101E's 10+ years ago (but ended up buying Rockport Technologies Aquila speakers). I'm going to audition them again soon and compare them to my Linkwitz. It will be interesting. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[tuga]

Speakers that produce astonishing soundstaging/imaging?​

In my view, soundstaging and imaging are at opposite, conflicting ends. The former is enhanced by room interaction ("envelopment", "immersiveness"), the latter is hindered by it ("sharpeness").

 

[Koeitje]

In my view, soundstaging and imaging are at opposite, conflicting ends. The former is enhanced by room interaction ("envelopment", "immersiveness"), the latter is hindered by it ("sharpeness").

I'd agree, you probably want a smooth directivity but how wide or narrow it should be depends on the room and preference.

 

[Flak]

In my view, soundstaging and imaging are at opposite, conflicting ends. The former is enhanced by room interaction ("envelopment", "immersiveness"), the latter is hindered by it ("sharpeness").

I'd also agree... a wider soundstage is created by reflections while you should hear less of the room, and more of the recording, with narrow directivity speakers

 

[regan]

Kef R3 maybe? Erin praised them for this

 

[regan]

Wharfedale Diamond 12.3

No love for these in your comparison?

 

[puppet]

In my view, soundstaging and imaging are at opposite, conflicting ends. The former is enhanced by room interaction ("envelopment", "immersiveness"), the latter is hindered by it ("sharpeness").

Not sure why you'd think they conflict. Isn't imaging primarily a part of how a track is mixed?

 

[tuga]

Not sure why you'd think they conflict. Isn't imaging primarily a part of how a track is mixed?

Both are effects, which can be "enhanced" or hindered by room interaction respectively.

 

[puppet]

Both are effects, which can be "enhanced" or hindered by room interaction respectively.

I guess I don't see imaging as an effect .. like sound stage is .. considering the process involved in creating it. Sure, you could characterize imaging as an effect but it is encoded in the recording whereas sound stage is an effect created in/by the listening room.

Actually, I can see where a wider/improved sound stage might enhance imaging beyond the confines of the loudspeakers.

 

[tuga]

I guess I don't see imaging as an effect .. like sound stage is .. considering the process involved in creating it. Sure, you could characterize imaging as an effect but it is encoded in the recording whereas sound stage is an effect created in/by the listening room.

Actually, I can see where a wider/improved sound stage might enhance imaging beyond the confines of the loudspeakers.

Lossof sharpness is innevitable, though.
It is a trade-off. You can either get sharp imaging and a more accurate "recreation" (reproduction) of the capture ambience or a wider soundstage and images and increased "envelopment".

A couple of snippets from "Acoustics 
Of
 Small Rooms" by Kleiner & Tichy:

Spaciousness and diffusivity

Localization of externalized single sound field components was shown to be fairly straightforward but dependent on many factors. Localization of sound field components that have identical sound levels at the ears will depend on further factors such as phase difference.
When sounds are correlated, such as a monophonic signal that is presented binaurally, the auditory event occurs inside the head, inside head localization (IHL). If the sounds at the ears are fully uncorrelated, such as two separate noise signals that are presented binaurally, there will be two auditory events, one at each ear.
An interesting effect can be heard when presenting a monophonic wide bandwidth noise signal in stereo (over loudspeakers or headphones) if the stereo signals are out of phase. The noise frequency components below 2 kHz are then perceived as spatially diffuse—having spaciousness— whereas those for higher frequencies are perceived as located between the loudspeakers (or for headphones, IHL occurs). The time difference in the low-frequency components provides phase cues that are ambiguous thus providing apparent sound field diffuseness, whereas the high-frequency sounds are analyzed by their envelopes and those will be identical at the two ears causing a located auditory event.
Similarly, when a wideband noise signal is provided over headphones to a listener and one of the headphones is fed with the signal delayed by a millisecond or more, the sound is perceived as diffuse.
What constitutes a diffuse sound field is thus different in the physical and psychoacoustic domains. In the latter, a diffuse sound field is that that provides non-locatedness of sounds or, alternatively phrased, that provides a sound that is located over all spatial angles (or rather upper hemisphere in a concert hall that has sound-absorptive seating).
In physics on the other hand, a diffuse sound field is defined as a sound field where all angles of sound incidence have equal probability, where the sound from each spatial angle is out of phase, and where the energy density is the same everywhere.
Obviously, the two ideas of what constitutes diffuseness are different in the two sciences. A physically diffuse sound field will also be psychologically diffuse but not necessarily the reverse. From the viewpoint of listening, it is of course the psychoacoustic properties that are of importance, not the sound field properties.


Auditory source width and image precision

As we listen to sounds, the apparent width of the auditory event, often called the auditory source width (ASW), will depend on many issues. To those listening to stereo or multichannel recordings of sound, it is quite clear that the width of the array of phantom sources treated by the recording or playback is determined by not only the layout of the loudspeaker setup in the listening room and the directional properties of the loudspeakers but also on the listening room itself. The more reflections arriving from the sides of the listening room, the wider will the ASW be. However, the ASW will be frequency dependent above 0.5 kHz and a 2 kHz sound arriving at ±45° relative the frontal direction will produce maximum ASW [38,39]. This is to be expected since the masking by direct sound is the smallest for this angle of incidence of early arriving reflections [16]. The ASW also depends on the low-frequency content of the signal, more low-frequency energy increases ASW [38,40,41]. Psychoacoustic testing shows that the spatial aspects of the early reflections are primarily determined by the reflection spectrum above 2 kHz [33].
Reliable data for sound reproduction in small rooms are difficult to find. A single omnidirectional loudspeaker judiciously placed close to the corner of a room may well create as large an auditory image as a conventional stereo loudspeaker setup placed out in the room as discussed in Chapters 9 and 11.
Using digital signal processing, the ASW can be made to extend far outside the bounds set by the stereo baseline. Sound field cancelation techniques


Symmetry

Early reflected sound will confuse hearing and make the stereo stage and its phantom sources appear incorrectly located or even blurred. As explained in Chapter 8 the listener’s placement of the phantom sources is dependent particularly on the transient nature of the sound that comes from the loudspeakers so it will be affected by the early reflected sound from the room surfaces. The early reflected sound will also affect the global auditory source width for an orchestra for example and may make it extend considerably beyond the baseline between the loudspeakers.
In asymmetric rooms where the walls on the left and right of the listener have different acoustic properties, the stereo stage may become biased towards the wall that reflects the most. The curve in Figure 8.23 shows the dependency more clearly for different levels of unbalance as applied to the center phantom source in a stereo loudspeaker system. The intensity will then be higher at that ear and the sound stage distorted. This distortion is usually compensated by changing the balance in amplification between the stereo channels.
At low frequencies in the modal region, symmetry may not be desirable since someone sitting in the middle of the room may be on or close to modal node lines. One way of avoiding such node lines is to make the room asymmetric in the low-frequency region.
This can be achieved by having an asymmetric rigid shell surrounding the inner room which is symmetric for mid- and high frequencies by suitably reflective side walls, ceiling, and floor. The inner room must be open acoustically to the outer shell at low frequencies, for example through ventilation vents, and similar large openings, for example at corners. In this way, one can have the desired listening position sound field symmetry for mid- and high frequencies while at the same time have asymmetric conditions in the modal frequency range. Bass traps to control the damping—and thus the reverberation times—of these modes can be placed between the outer and inner shell. It is important to remember though that noise transmission to the surrounding spaces will then be dependent on the sound isolation of the outer shell that must be physically substantial.

 

[AlexanderM]

No love for these in your comparison?

I listened to all the speakers I mentioned at the same sitting, the Diamonds didn't stand out from the others at all, is all I can say.

 

[puppet]

tuga ... I'm thinking that my interpretation of imaging isn't yours.
Those snip's you've posted deal with sound stage production .. not imaging as I understand imaging production.

 

[Miker 1102]

I love it how some of you guys here on ASR like to feel superior to the audiofools, while you're pretty much identical to them, without realizing it.

Yes. I was thinking the same thing. It get so tiresome ..the endless lectures instead of just trying to answer a simple questions. Of course the sound is subjective to the room but I can say for certain that coaxial speakers like KEF Q series have astonished me wirh the width and depth of the Soundstage. A pair of 300 dollar q150 to the q550 towers have given me great pleasure and allowed me to turn off the dsp an some of my avr amps. I can also say the sane about several Mirage omd and Msi speakers I own which Floyd Toole was a fan of. The omd line by Mirage has excellent, wide sound dispersion in any room. I own a very large home with very extreme rooms so I can at least say that the dispersion of sound in a room with 24 ft high ceilings and a length 45 by 30 ft astonished me as compared to the klipsh speakers we found incredibly loud an obnoxious in the same setting.. I feel as if this was the answer the guy was looking for ..not that speakers cannot really astonish you....they absolutely can.

 

[pseudoid]

Sounds good. I look forward to hearing back from you about this.

Did this ever happen?

 

[ahofer]

Did this ever happen?

Wasn't Erin banned? I never did see why. Seems like a mild-mannered dude.

 

[pseudoid]

Lot's of older musicans like Ron Carter Paul Wells, Jed levy, John Escreet, David Smith an i can go on an on are serious audiophiles which tons of experience an know atleast how an instrument must sound. Lots of them are interviewd by Stereophile " Musicians As Audiophiles" . You will find their experiences an great music. Worth will to read in too.

​

Hey there @Snarfie,
I was hoping that all your famous-name droppings for Vandies would hopefully improve the sound (-stage) of mine.
Nuh-Uh!

 

[Thomas_A]

To have both worlds, the imaging part requires no reflections within the frontal arrived sound the first few ms. The cleaner this first arrival is, the better detail from the recording.

 

[fineMen]

Wasn't Erin banned?

Mesanovic CDM65 3-way Studio Monitor Review

Mesanovic CDM65 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

"Killer speakers" indeed. As a true three way it manages Doppler and amplitude distortion pretty well. Doppler transforms in-room to amplitude distortion, mind you? Only that the waveguide is crossed over too high as to mitigate the risk of (thermal) overloading.

Anyway, the initial question is ill posed. There is no thing like 'imaging' or 'soundstaging'. I understand that the audiofools' press always wants to find a way out of satisfaction. In case sonsumers were satisfied, what about the yellow press? It would die, and rightfully so. Shame on them! Be honest to yourselves and see the imaginary stereo as an aftermath, a rare plus to be had. Nothing essential. It needs you to put your head into a vice. Nothing to support the pleasure with the real music, right? Relax ... . Imaginary imagaging cannot be had with true music, period.

 

[Thomas_A]

”imaging” for me is equal to detail. ”Soundstage” is the ASW.