Speakers that produce astonishing soundstaging/imaging?

[beagleman]

There are several interviews with John Atkinson from Stereophile were he try to explain sound-stage imaging around minute 13,10.

I had the experience using for the first time Vandersteen speakers (who are phase coherent build) as John Atkinson describe it is like a Veil is lifting a clear window where u almost can see the band. I would describe it as it got almost intimate you don't listen to the band you experience the band. However it was a pain to place them correctly took me a week. Most important addition was to correct them with DSP (Mathaudio Room EQ) for my horrible room acoustics. Curious thing is i did measure an correct several comparable column loudspeakers who where not build phase coherent but where corrected by the DSP (so phase coherent behavior must be restored) still they did not come close to the Vandersteen regarding imaging.
To give you an idea regarding my room acoustics i had to deal with here under my frequency response. There is so much hiss between voice an instruments that any imaging is hard to find.

Quite interesting, but I guess I am still perplexed at how so many will say "Huge Image", "Wide Image" and so on, with NO actual verified way of telling IF the Image should sound big or not.
I find a lot of comments praising a wide, deep or huge image, but it is correct or just something they find appealing sounding.

I have heard the Polk SDA speakers which create an artificially large left to right soundstage and KNOW they are obviously not "Correct", but that type of soundstage appeals to some guys, I guess.

The test he gives seems interesting, and I will try it on my current speaker set up in one room to see what "Happens"

 

[Snarfie]

Quite interesting, but I guess I am still perplexed at how so many will say "Huge Image", "Wide Image" and so on, with NO actual verified way of telling IF the Image should sound big or not.
I find a lot of comments praising a wide, deep or huge image, but it is correct or just something they find appealing sounding.

I have heard the Polk SDA speakers which create an artificially large left to right soundstage and KNOW they are obviously not "Correct", but that type of soundstage appeals to some guys, I guess.

The test he gives seems interesting, and I will try it on my current speaker set up in one room to see what "Happens"

I don't have the answer how soundstage appears i read that phase coherent/time alignment behaviour, placement of speakers, DSP (if your acoustics is bad) a good steprespons measurment are important for creating a soundstage. My soundstage is not hugh my speakers are just 1,80 meter apart i am sitting just 2 meters from the speakers so i got a dens detaild sound picture that could be helpful to hear details as with a close monitor situation. I am 63 an never got such sometimes intimate sound experience. If the recording is bad the sound is ruthless. Most important DSP created a level playing field for al freqencies that put the icing on the cake. A measuring mic was the best audio investment i ever did.

 

[ahofer]

Not that impressed with Vandersteen FR.

Measurements for speaker Vandersteen 2c

spinorama.internet-box.ch

 

[Snarfie]

Not that impressed with Vandersteen FR.

Measurements for speaker Vandersteen 2c

spinorama.internet-box.ch

Not that impressed with Vandersteen FR.

Measurements for speaker Vandersteen 2c

spinorama.internet-box.ch

Probably my DSP took care of that
. Lots of professional musicians using Vandersteen speakers for soundstage an authentice sound reproduction from instruments esspecialy drums highats etc.despite Vandersteen FR. There is an interesting series of interviews in Stereophile Musicians As Audiophiles.
I find their findings as important as measurments. The combination is Ideal for choosing Gear. Eventualy your own ears an experience how something has to sound is key.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/musicians-audophiles-paul-wells

 

[mightycicadalord]

Not that impressed with Vandersteen FR.

Measurements for speaker Vandersteen 2c

spinorama.internet-box.ch

I heard those not too long ago at a friends house, it was the first time I said screw it, gonna give them an honest opinion about how it sounds, and it was not good. Imaging was actually pretty poor. I got to play back some songs I had written on them and they didn't sound right at all. Invited the guy over to hear my much cheaper but better setup system and converted him over the dark side of DSP and how good sound isn't an accident.

 

[ahofer]

I heard those not too long ago at a friends house, it was the first time I said screw it, gonna give them an honest opinion about how it sounds, and it was not good. Imaging was actually pretty poor. I got to play back some songs I had written on them and they didn't sound right at all. Invited the guy over to hear my much cheaper but better setup system and converted him over the dark side of DSP and how good sound isn't an accident.

Yeah, I've auditioned some Vandersteen speakers and didn't love them. I used to have Thiel CS3.6, and certainly preferred them, as I do other speakers I auditioned including KEF Reference series and Harbeth SHL5+.

 

[MattHooper]

Yeah, I've auditioned some Vandersteen speakers and didn't love them. I used to have Thiel CS3.6, and certainly preferred them, as I do other speakers I auditioned including KEF Reference series and Harbeth SHL5+.

For whatever reason Vandersteen never grabbed me either. Found them boring. Though it's been a long time since I've heard a pair. (I own Thiel 2.7s, owned the Harbeth SHL5+ as well. *bumps fist*)

(I also own Joseph Audio Perspective speakers).

 

[pseudoid]

Found them boring.

Some would take that statement to be complimentary when discussing speakers.
Okay, maybe I am exaggerating a bit: Our pair is like a maintenance-free pet that has become part of the family, but at least they are not like an uninvited drunk uncle.

 

[Snarfie]

For whatever reason Vandersteen never grabbed me either. Found them boring. Though it's been a long time since I've heard a pair. (I own Thiel 2.7s, owned the Harbeth SHL5+ as well. *bumps fist*)

(I also own Joseph Audio Perspective speakers).

Paul Wells an many other professional musicians have another opinion about the Vandersteen speakers. I have the same experience that does not mean that other speakers could do better. But the variabels to get them sound realy good are hugh.
Paul Wells on Vandersteen model C1:

Anyway, I went to Aaron's place to hear his Vandersteen 1C loudspeakers. He played a vinyl copy of Oscar Peterson's We Get Requests (LP, Verve V6-8606). That was the first time I experienced closing my eyes and imagining the musicians in the room. I'd never heard such realism from a stereo. It was extremely valuable to me as a musician to be able to hear music reproduced that realistically and to learn about what kind of sounds these musicians have and had. And how that could help me develop my own sound as a musician."

 

[Sokel]

He played a vinyl copy of Oscar Peterson's We Get Requests (LP, Verve V6-8606).

*about soundstage and not speakers specifically*

Is there any specific reason that vinyl creates such a different soundstage with extended depth,etc?
Is it about the limitations and the faults of the medium that creates that illusion?

 

[Snarfie]

*about soundstage and not speakers specifically*

Is there any specific reason that vinyl creates such a different soundstage with extended depth,etc?
Is it about the limitations and the faults of the medium that creates that illusion?

I guess the soundstage is created by the speakers specifically that is my experience comparing other speakers to the Vandersteen who could not create this soundstage. IMO soundstage is information that is in the recording some speaker can an some speakers can't reproduce this information. Probably dependent on phase coherent build local acoustics (it said that those two can be resolved with DSP) , correct placement of speakers like toe in or out (the Vandersteen need even a certain degree of tilt) and so on. Frankly i was almost done with the Vandersteen regarding placement i was close to sell them. Then i read the f..ing manual an got it wright.

 

[Wesayso]

Unfortunately, there's nothing on the market currently that combines these attributes the way my speakers do. That's something I'm trying to address.

You've created something very interesting and wonderful (in my honest opinion) and I hope you will succeed in bringing it to market.

 

[Mart68]

*about soundstage and not speakers specifically*

Is there any specific reason that vinyl creates such a different soundstage with extended depth,etc?
Is it about the limitations and the faults of the medium that creates that illusion?

who says that it does? I have that Oscar Peterson album on CD, it sounds pretty 'lifelike' even without being on vinyl or using Vandersteen speakers. I wouldn't read too much into that comment. Musicians are not some sort of superior arbiter, except maybe if it is a recording they actually played on.

 

[Sokel]

who says that it does? I have that Oscar Peterson album on CD, it sounds pretty 'lifelike' even without being on vinyl or using Vandersteen speakers. I wouldn't read too much into that comment. Musicians are not some sort of superior arbiter, except maybe if it is a recording they actually played on.

I never said I'm a superior arbiter,quite the opposite.
And I didn't use terms like "lifelike",I just said maybe the faults of the medium create a different illusion.I have no clue why.
I can suspect only but that's not something I would say as a fact.

 

[Wesayso]

*about soundstage and not speakers specifically*

Is there any specific reason that vinyl creates such a different soundstage with extended depth,etc?
Is it about the limitations and the faults of the medium that creates that illusion?

In my opinion? Yes. Does that mean that CD or other sources can't sound as convincing? No. There are many things at play with stereo listening.
I employ something based on (very) old shuffling techniques. There are processors that do something similar, like the one described here:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/phaedrus-audio-shuphler

Interestingly, though, it probably was! In the days when the primary consumer medium was vinyl records, the inherent mechanical and electrical crosstalk introduced by the pick-up cartridges at high-frequencies acted to reduce the HF image width — in effect, imposing Stereosonic Shuffling automatically. Perhaps the resulting sharper imaging is one reason why many still claim the superiority of vinyl!

Knowing the effect this article speaks off, I can relate to vinyl having a very similar effect.

Other boxes based on this shuffling technique:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bsg-q248l-signal-completion-stage#6LiT3xIHuRghk3L4.97

Or if you have JRiver Media Player as a source, you can simply activate an effect called "Surround Field" to try it out. At its Medium setting you'd be close to the BSQ box.

Any VST that does mid/side processing can be used for variations on this theme. Not based on thin air, but the fact that there is cross talk between
the channels at one's ear. The left ear hearing the right channel and vice versa.
Much more about that subject in this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fixing-the-stereo-phantom-center.277519/

Have fun experimenting! I know I did .

 

[Mart68]

I never said I'm a superior arbiter,quite the opposite.
And I didn't use terms like "lifelike",I just said maybe the faults of the medium create a different illusion.I have no clue why.
I can suspect only but that's not something I would say as a fact.

Sorry, I misread your post.

 

[Sokel]

In my opinion? Yes. Does that mean that CD or other sources can't sound as convincing? No. There are many things at play with stereo listening.
I employ something based on (very) old shuffling techniques. There are processors that do something similar, like the one described here:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/phaedrus-audio-shuphler



Knowing the effect this article speaks off, I can relate to vinyl having a very similar effect.

Other boxes based on this shuffling technique:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bsg-q248l-signal-completion-stage#6LiT3xIHuRghk3L4.97

Or if you have JRiver Media Player as a source, you can simply activate an effect called "Surround Field" to try it out. At its Medium setting you'd be close to the BSQ box.

Any VST that does mid/side processing can be used for variations on this theme. Not based on thin air, but the fact that there is cross talk between
the channels at one's ear. The left ear hearing the right channel and vice versa.
Much more about that subject in this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fixing-the-stereo-phantom-center.277519/

Have fun experimenting! I know I did .

That's why I love ASR,I'll try it.
Thank you!

 

[ahofer]

As I’ve mentioned in several other threads, I know hundreds of musicians, and only one of them cared a wit about audio reproduction equipment. And many of them have hearing loss (not just rockers - try sitting in front of a trombone some time). The experience from the audience is also quite different from the stage. So I tend to view the whole “musicians prefer it” as useless.

 

[mightycicadalord]

As I’ve mentioned in several other threads, I know hundreds of musicians, and only one of them cared a wit about audio reproduction equipment. And many of them have hearing loss (not just rockers - try sitting in front of a trombone some time). The experience from the audience is also quite different from the stage. So I tend to view the whole “musicians prefer it” as useless.

I know a lot of musicians and they all care about audio reproduction. They are all on the younger side, the older ones don't care. I prefer the new generation frankly.

 

[Snarfie]

As I’ve mentioned in several other threads, I know hundreds of musicians, and only one of them cared a wit about audio reproduction equipment. And many of them have hearing loss (not just rockers - try sitting in front of a trombone some time). The experience from the audience is also quite different from the stage. So I tend to view the whole “musicians prefer it” as useless.

Thats a bold statement which is useless for me. Basicly it's generalising Musicians thats sad.