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Speakers That “Sound Good” at Lower Volumes

jasonq997

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I recently upgraded my speakers to a lauded model on this site (Revel M16), and I can hear and understand the virtues of it. However, they seem to lack an element that really shined on the previous model that filled their place. They only start to have the necessary presence when the volume is cranked up to a certain level. At high volumes they are world beaters, but the problem is that at moderate volumes on symphonic orchestral recordings everything is thin and weak sounding. With typical studio recordings this isn’t as much of a problem.

I am using a very high power amplifier, and the previous model I was using (Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy – Parts Express Mod) is less sensitive and needed a good amount of power so I don’t think the differences in sensitivity is the issue.

Is there something to the idea that some speaker models sound better at lower volumes, and is there a theory about why this might be the case (something about the difference in frequency response, crossover design etc.)?
 

levimax

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I am going to guess the Revel M 16 are accurate at both high and low levels.... maybe your previous speakers has some FR response issues that sound better at low levels? In my experience old fashioned "tone controls / loudness compensation" can do wonders for low level listening. Fletcher and Munson figured it out a long time ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
 
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jasonq997

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@levimax , what are your thoughts on what those adjustments might be?

And actually I would be interested in @Dennis Murphy 's response as well since he is behind the Affordable Accuracy monitors. I have seen him on this forum from time to time.
 

levimax

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@levimax , what are your thoughts on what those adjustments might be?
The @mSpot link is good information but if you read through it people get bogged down arguing about "the best" or "the most correct" DSP solution which is great but I think this problem has been solved a long time ago with regular old bandaxall tone controls. Turn up the bass a lot and the treble a little until it sounds right for the level you are listening. Not perfect but very satisfying when you can't listen a normal levels.
 

valerianf

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The title of this thread is a question that I am asking myself since many years.
My guessing is that is comes from the low frequency driver design.
Some of them, because of the membrane mass and the motor design need a minimum energy to start working properly.
High efficiency low frequency drivers should behave better at low volume.
 

Frank Dernie

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I recently upgraded my speakers to a lauded model on this site (Revel M16), and I can hear and understand the virtues of it. However, they seem to lack an element that really shined on the previous model that filled their place. They only start to have the necessary presence when the volume is cranked up to a certain level. At high volumes they are world beaters, but the problem is that at moderate volumes on symphonic orchestral recordings everything is thin and weak sounding. With typical studio recordings this isn’t as much of a problem.

I am using a very high power amplifier, and the previous model I was using (Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy – Parts Express Mod) is less sensitive and needed a good amount of power so I don’t think the differences in sensitivity is the issue.

Is there something to the idea that some speaker models sound better at lower volumes, and is there a theory about why this might be the case (something about the difference in frequency response, crossover design etc.)?
I remember being told by one of the Linn speaker designers that in their testing listeners generally preferred what he referred to as a "smiley" response curve.
Speculation is that because most people don't, in general, listen anywhere near as loud as the mixing engineers a bit of "loudness compensation" in the speaker response (that is what a smile response curve is) is preferred.
Back in the day most amps has some sort of equal loudness (sadly uncalibrated) compensation, but rare nowadays.

On this forum this is not used as the "preferred" response but a trawl through the measurements in HiFi News shows quite a few popular speakers have it.
 

Katji

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If amplifier has no Loudness control, use parametric "equaliser" /DSP of your media player...good luck.
Look at speakers sensitivity spec./rating/claim. More sensitive, higher number there [like >90 dB] generally means less amplication needed therefore better at low volume.
If listening at low volume is important to you, then that sensitivity rating is probably more important to you than anything else. Reviews generally don't mention it because they are in the audiophile context, which is not very well aligned with reality.
 

Chazz6

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My experience is limited: I went from old BIC Venturi Formula 2's to Focal Aria 906's. As best as I can say, the latter work well at low volume. Each instrument is clear and distinct.

A Yamaha A-S501 integrated amp feeds them. It has a loudness control. It also has a "Pure Direct" on/off control. When it is on, all the circuitry for bass, treble, balance, and loudness is bypassed. I go back and forth on using it, which is easy to do with the accompanying remote.
 

RPG

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Or, along the lines of what levimax said, get yourself an RME ADI-2 dac which has an excellent "set and forget" automatic loudness feature. From the manual:

Another legacy of HiFi amplifiers: there has not been a single one missing a feature called
Loudness. It tries to address the changes in frequency-dependent hearing sensitivity over dif-
ferent volume levels. If one listens to music loud, then drops the level by at least 20 dB, sound
loses punch and glitter. HiFi amps tried to fight this effect by adding more bass and treble the
lower the volume was set. Unfortunately that never worked as intended, and just became an
additional bass/treble booster. Reason: the manufacturer of the HiFi amp could not know what
volume any position of the volume knob equals at the customer's home. Room size, room
dampening and efficiency of the used speakers are all unknown.

But the effect of loss in perceived sound exists (read about the Fletcher-Munson curves), and
can be easily reproduced with any serious gear by comparing normal volume and DIM state
(usually -20 dB). The ADI-2 DAC offers Loudness for the analog stereo outputs, and probably is
the first time that Loudness works as intended. The user can decide how much maximum gain
in Bass and Treble should occur at lower volume settings. The user also sets the Low Vol Ref-
erence, where maximum gain is achieved. After extensive tests a 20 dB range has been de-
fined as range for maximum gain to no gain while increasing volume. That seemed to be the
perfect definition of the range that needs to be addressed by Loudness.

Here is an example on how it works: the user's typical lowest level listening volume is at -35 dB
at the unit. This value is now set by the user as Low Vol Ref in the Loudness menu. Then Bass
and Treble Gain can be set between 0 and +10 dB. Default is +7 dB for both. Increasing the
volume by turning the Volume knob causes the gain in Bass and Treble to be lowered smoothly
over a range of 20 dB. So when Volume is set to -15 dB, the music is not only quite loud, but
Loudness' Bass and Treble are then at 0 dB gain. See chapter 31.8 for graphs.

No matter how sensitive the connected phones or speakers are, no matter how much increase
in Bass and Treble are desired – with the ADI-2 DAC one can finally adjust it to meet the per-
sonal hearing and taste. Loudness finally works as it should have worked from the start - an-
other unique feature in the ADI-2 DAC.
Note: Loudness works best in Auto Ref Level mode due to the seamless dBr scale of the vol-
ume control. Without Auto Ref Level active, manually changing the Ref Level will change the
volume without changing the VOLume value (dB). As Loudness is referenced to a 'Low Vol Ref'
setting it then might no longer work as intended, and needs the Low Vol Ref value to be ad-
justed
 
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LApstrE

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@jasonq997 Could you please share what route you ended up going down? I have similar issues with the M16's
I've a CXA60 with tone controls driving the M16's. I listen mostly at low volumes, tone controls help somewhat but still feels lacking vs headphones. I'm wondering if a higher powered amp like a nc252mp will produce better results at low volumes. Looking to see if a miniDSP HD will help as well as a budget alternative to the ADI2 DAC recommended in this thread.
 

audiofooled

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I recently upgraded my speakers to a lauded model on this site (Revel M16), and I can hear and understand the virtues of it. However, they seem to lack an element that really shined on the previous model that filled their place. They only start to have the necessary presence when the volume is cranked up to a certain level. At high volumes they are world beaters, but the problem is that at moderate volumes on symphonic orchestral recordings everything is thin and weak sounding. With typical studio recordings this isn’t as much of a problem.

I am using a very high power amplifier, and the previous model I was using (Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy – Parts Express Mod) is less sensitive and needed a good amount of power so I don’t think the differences in sensitivity is the issue.

Is there something to the idea that some speaker models sound better at lower volumes, and is there a theory about why this might be the case (something about the difference in frequency response, crossover design etc.)?

I'm no expert, but IMHO this is somewhat of a paradox and a curse of a better loudspeaker and our ears cannot be trusted on this. In a similar fashion, when you have a better car it will feel like standing still when actually going over speed limits. I think this is due to combined mechanisms of perception and the way we make sense of it. But when we look at the speedometer we can trust it and suspend disbelief.

But when it comes to loudspeakers, we may not always have a correct yardstick, if you will. Better speaker with less nonlinear distortion and better bass extension tends to sound "less loud", ie you need to crank it a bit in order for it to to "feel" correct. Maybe some of the experts on here could shed more light on this matter, but I think it's all a psychoacoustic effect.

Chances are that you are objectively not going "above the limits" of loudness with the upgraded speakers and it is just a subjective phenomenon.
When it comes to bass extension, our mechanisms of auditory perception tend to compensate for the "missing fundamental" and fill in the sound that doesn't really exist by relying upon the upper harmonics we hear. On the other hand, when we have speakers with more bass extension and the fundamental notes are actually playing, we may think the sound is too loud when in fact it isn't, only the fundamentals require more power and we perceive less of the upper harmonics when we look at the equal loudness curve, i.e we may perceive that we have too much bass when in fact we have to little midrange. The absence of distortion is another factor. And then there is a visceral feel of the bass where we make sense of it by using other mechanisms of perception. Also, it is room dependent. More bass extension excites more room modes which can get loud. And then there's directivity, setup and other things which are depending on speakers. As well, the fact that you are using a very high power amplifier doesn't mean that you're using even a fraction of it's power. Or that you are, but it isn't as loud with lower sensitivity speaker. I wouldn't worry about that and just compensate by turning the level up a bit.

Bottom line for me would be, if you have a better speaker, go for it and listen to it at appropriate levels. This is easy to discover and also track dependent. You also have a good chance that your neighbors will perceive it to be less loud as well, of course within reasonable levels...
 
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