channels volume imbalance

[janul]

Dear audioenthusiast,

I am running thru my OCDs with amplifiers, I have experience until now. I have never paid atention to balance between channels volume level but I am finding my self unhappy realizing that there do exist step atenuators implemented also in budget preamplifiers such as schiit, denafrips, ladder and aslo found some information related to high end amplifiers where are implemented considerably more expensive volume controlers compared to something like alps blue velvet. So some high end companies apparently do that for a reason. I assume that to make my OCD happy I will sell my integrated amplifiers and buy some of those budget preamplifiers which seems to have decent sound quality + power amp as I consider this 100 percent assurance that my channels will play always at the very same volume. Am I wrong, or are my concerns misleaded and the real sence of step attenuators is different?

Please consider my room is accusticaly treated and left to right mirrored almost to 100 percent, speakers have exact same distances from everywhere etc.

Thank you in advance

 

[Doodski]

Howdy @janul. Yes, step attenuators are more accurate in the levels from left to right. An ALPS Blue Velvet is a very nice pot but it is not a step configuration. Are you sensing a left to right imbalance?

 

[DVDdoug]

Nothing in the analog world is "perfect".

Traditional dual potentiometers can have noticeable audible differences. They are usually worse at low volumes (near maximum attenuation).

I've had a one with some "play" (presumably in the "back" pot) where one side would change a bit before I'd hear a change in the other side and might have to wiggle it to get good balance.

Stepped analog controls aren't perfect either but resistors with 1% tolerance are common & cheap (the expense is in the switch) and according to my hand-dandy spreadsheet, 1% is 0.086dB which is "good enough for audio". (A voltage divider depends on resistance ratio so a 1% change in resistance doesn't necessarily translate to a 1% change in amplitude.)

Of course digital attenuation/amplification is digitally perfect, but you might have a digitally controlled analog attenuator (such as a digital pot) and then you've got tolerances again.

...Stereo recordings aren't "perfect" either. They are mixed by-ear. Although some sounds can be perfectly centered in a digital recording.

 

[janul]

Howdy @janul. Yes, step attenuators are more accurate in the levels from left to right. An ALPS Blue Velvet is a very nice pot but it is not a step configuration. Are you sensing a left to right imbalance?

I know alps blue velvet is not step , Thank you for the reply. so here my answer to yor question, I am not sure I am using kef ls50 meta and I am experiencing slight shifts but sometimes more so, in imaging from left to right, am I crazy or is it possible? So i do not know, but I find my self, I do not want any amplifier that is not able to attenuate volume to unaudiable difference/mistake between the channels, yeah thats me :!

 

[Doodski]

I am experiencing slight shifts but sometimes more so, in imaging from left to right, am I crazy or is it possible?

Yes, it is possible it would be very subtle and faint but it could happen.

I do not want any amplifier that is not able to attenuate volume to unaudiable difference/mistake between the channels, yeah thats me :!

It seems you will be more pleased with a stepped attenuator. Do you have any model(s) in mind?

 

[janul]

Nothing in the analog world is "perfect".

Traditional dual potentiometers can have noticeable audible differences. They are usually worse at low volumes (near maximum attenuation).

I've had a one with some "play" (presumably in the "back" pot) where one side would change a bit before I'd hear a change in the other side and might have to wiggle it to get good balance.

Stepped analog controls aren't perfect either but resistors with 1% tolerance are common & cheap (the expense is in the switch) and according to my hand-dandy spreadsheet, 1% is 0.086dB which is "good enough for audio". (A voltage divider depends on resistance ratio so a 1% change in resistance doesn't necessarily translate to a 1% change in amplitude.)

Of course digital attenuation/amplification is digitally perfect, but you might have a digitally controlled analog attenuator (such as a digital pot) and then you've got tolerances again.

Thank you, I love this forum, for obtaining answers up to the task, thanks again. Yep so actually I am heaving electrocompaniet eci 80d. Which is killer regading the textures retrival in midrange and I really like this aspect of this amplifier. And I did not knw there is also digital way to attenuate volume, thought it is alway conected to some mechanical part. So if the electrocompaniet does it digitally, which by appearence is very possible, I am relatively safe right? Will try to check what kind of attenuator is there, but to find out this info will be not easy I think, at least for me

 

[janul]

Yes, it is possible it would be very subtle and faint but it could happen.

It seems you will be more pleased with a stepped attenuator. Do you have any model(s) in mind?

schiit kara, ladder bach - this one is not measured nowhere, but sonicaly well reviewed and the step attenuator is there, would you know about some other possibilites?

 

[Doodski]

schiit kara, ladder bach - this one is not measured nowhere, but sonicaly well reviewed and the step attenuator is there, would you know about some other possibilites?

IC. Well they both LOOK nice. I am fearful of buying from a offshore company because there have been many issues posted here @ ASR about this problem. The Schiit Kara looks very nice and is made in the USA and for me that is why I bought Schiit stuff. I don't know of any other models.

 

[janul]

IC. Well they both LOOK nice. I am fearful of buying from a offshore company because there have been many issues posted here @ ASR about this problem. The Schiit Kara looks very nice and is made in the USA and for me that is why I bought Schiit stuff. I don't know of any other models.

Yes, this is exactly what I am thinking. Maybee bach sounds somthing better than schiit. But schiit is simply schiit thing and dispite I have seen already also some not very well measured device, kara seems to be great. What power amp are you using?

 

[gwing]

Another thing to consider is to have a separate volume control for each channel. It's a bit of a faff but you get used to it, and it can help if they are mounted close to each other so that you can link them with a rubber band.

 

[Dogen]

I too am very sensitive to channel imbalance. But it’s a hard goal to reach. Recordings often aren’t balanced, and chances are our ears are a bit off balance.

 

[Doodski]

Another thing to consider is to have a separate volume control for each channel. It's a bit of a faff but you get used to it, and it can help if they are mounted close to each other so that you can link them with a rubber band.

No way man. Not for me. It's too Meccano Set to me. LoL...

 

[janul]

Another thing to consider is to have a separate volume control for each channel. It's a bit of a faff but you get used to it, and it can help if they are mounted close to each other so that you can link them with a rubber band.

is that a joke or really some used practice? How can I come to exact volume matching like this? I have seen super high end preamp with separate volume control for each channel, but there vere steps with numbers, I do not see even sence in that, however expensive and high end it was.

 

[Doodski]

is that a joke or really some used practice? How can I come to exact volume matching like this? I have seen super high end preamp with separate volume control for each channel, but there vere steps with numbers, I do not see even sence in that, however expensive and high end it was.

With procedures that are very inconvenient.

 

[janul]

I too am very sensitive to channel imbalance. But it’s a hard goal to reach. Recordings often aren’t balanced, and chances are our ears are a bit off balance.

Thats right, thats what I was telling to my self in order to awoid spending another money but you know does not work to me , at least one aspect of disbalance I will remove

 

[Doodski]

@janul. The Schiit Kara looks very good for the price... and would solve the issue for the electronics...

 

[gwing]

is that a joke or really some used practice? How can I come to exact volume matching like this? I have seen super high end preamp with separate volume control for each channel, but there vere steps with numbers, I do not see even sence in that, however expensive and high end it was.

No its not a joke at all (except perhaps for the rubber band bit).

My old valve pre-amp, not that I use it much these days except for an occasional bit of vinyl, has these separate volume controls for each channel. I didn't like that to start with but it works well. No longer any channel mismatch issue in your equipment, no longer any problems with recordings being at different levels to each other or with off centred stereo balance - you just adjust the two knobs to give you the volume you want and the balance you want when you put a new disc on. It's all analogue - not even any guide numbers on those volume knobs, just a zero and a max mark, you use your ears not your eyes to adjust them.

These days, mostly streaming Tidal, I don't have any balance control readily available and just have to put up with the vagaries of a cheap stereo volume pot and the provided balance of recordings rather than being able to easily compensate. Such is progress - but there is I think less inconsistencies in recordings to deal with so it's viable, most of the time.

P.S. The meccano idea mentioned earlier is fantastic. Steam powered volume controls? Sign me up for that any day

 

[Golf]

A perfect l/r playback balance is probably the most underrated factor in order to enjoy recorded music throughout the universe.

 

[janul]

A perfect l/r playback balance is probably the most underrated factor in order to enjoy recorded music throughout the universe.

I totally agree. I entered into the hifi year ago and I have to say that at this moment I am quite a bit surprised that this topic is not discussed and evaluated more that it actually is. I am a bit angry because being novice I have read a lot of reviews of different amplifiers and at the moment I feel that I rad bunch of usless informations, and already spend some good money. In my common sence book the word amplifier does mean somthing it self, and stereo amplifier ability to keep both channels at the same level to me sounds like pretty much the basic capability. Checking higher end audiphile grade amplifiers seems that all of them have some decent mangement to achieve that goal, like a must have. And I do not understand why about 2K price level it is still pretty commont to just use somthing like alps blue velvet. Alps blue velvet part is 15 dollars, something better will be 100? But if sombody does agree with me that equal amplification as a function of amplifier does make sence, I would expect to see that 100 dolar part in every at last pure analog amplifier from 500 dollar like for example rega io, even if the price would have jump to 600. Yes without any aditional profit to producer. Is it f...k stereo aplifier? or what it is?

 

[Zek]

I am experiencing slight shifts but sometimes more so, in imaging from left to right,

You need to have a mono recording to judge whether there is a difference between the left and right channels.
There may be more reasons, from the mentioned difference in potentiometer values, to the difference in the recording itself.
In any case, balance control would help.