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Speakers optimized for use with subs

HooStat

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To avoid stepping on the post asking about whether more than 5" mid woofer is needed for subs, I wanted to ask whether anyone makes a speaker that is optimized for use with a sub. By optimized, I mean that it doesn't trade too much sensitivity for extension, and doesn't introduce a port unnecessarily (particularly one that introduces distortion at higher frequencies).

If one assumes that one will use 2-3 subs, and one is not concerned about higher cross-over points (or places the subs to minimize the ability to locate them audibly), it seems like it should be pretty straightforward to create a two or three way speaker of modest size that could integrate well with 12" subs from Rythmik or SVS (or similar).

I am also thinking of something with decent loudness capability, not for near-field. Say 80 db at 3 meters.

The first thought that comes to my mind is actually a center channel speaker from KEF (R2C), but it is $1200. But it would be nice if the budget for a pair could be < $1500.

Thanks,
Mark
 

richard12511

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To avoid stepping on the post asking about whether more than 5" mid woofer is needed for subs, I wanted to ask whether anyone makes a speaker that is optimized for use with a sub. By optimized, I mean that it doesn't trade too much sensitivity for extension, and doesn't introduce a port unnecessarily (particularly one that introduces distortion at higher frequencies).

If one assumes that one will use 2-3 subs, and one is not concerned about higher cross-over points (or places the subs to minimize the ability to locate them audibly), it seems like it should be pretty straightforward to create a two or three way speaker of modest size that could integrate well with 12" subs from Rythmik or SVS (or similar).

I am also thinking of something with decent loudness capability, not for near-field. Say 80 db at 3 meters.

The first thought that comes to my mind is actually a center channel speaker from KEF (R2C), but it is $1200. But it would be nice if the budget for a pair could be < $1500.

Thanks,
Mark

JTR (HTR speakers) and all PSA speakers are examples of this. Another one is Triad if you don't want horns.

*PSA as in Power Sound Audio, not the Paul McGowan company. You can ask to have your speakers made in China for a significantly reduced price, which should put them in your budget.
 

Duke

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I wanted to ask whether anyone makes a speaker that is optimized for use with a sub. By optimized, I mean that it doesn't trade too much sensitivity for extension, and doesn't introduce a port unnecessarily (particularly one that introduces distortion at higher frequencies).

I've been doing that for years.

If one assumes that one will use 2-3 subs...

I make a dedicated four-sub system called The Swarm, which can cover the bottom two octaves.

I m also thinking of something with decent loudness capability, not for near-field. Say 80 db at 3 meters.

My least-capable subwoofer-optimized main speakers can do about 102 dB at 3 meters with no protective highpass filter. And about 3 dB higher with a protective high-pass filter. I prefer not having a highpass filter in the main signal path, so I designed in enough headroom to make it unnecessary in most applications.

But it would be nice if the budget for a pair could be < $1500.

Unfortunately my prices are considerably higher than that, as I'm normally aiming at significantly greater output capability than 80 dB @ 3 meters, so that the peaks are uncompressed even if the average SPL isn't any higher than 80 dB.
 
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richard12511

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I make a dedicated -sub system called The Swarm which can cover the bottom two octaves effectively.

I wish more manufacturers would offer something like this. What's weird to me is that it seems to be mostly the HT world that's pushing the multi-sub idea. I'm surprised it's not a bigger thing in the studio and stereo music world, since those tend to be more about accuracy, and that's the biggest benefit of multi-sub(imo).

This is kinda unrelated, but you talking about manually adjusting the phase of the different swarm subs really helped me this past weekend. Really quite simple, but what I did was turn the subwoofers around so that the woofers are right up against the wall. I spent almost a whole day turning these heavy ass subs around, adjusting the phase slightly, turning them back around, then remeasuring. At some point I had the thought "why don't I just leave them turned around", and that's what I did. Really sped up the whole process of phase aligning everything tremendously. I just put on some pink noise and stood by the rear(closer to mlp) sub and adjusted the phase tick by tick while REW measured the pink noise. Just kept doing that until the response started to even out. Ended up with a response almost as flat as what I used to have with 4 subs :). Also, because the subs are quite large, turning them around eliminated an SBIR I was having trouble with. Haven't really found any downside, yet. It even allows me to see the clip light on the back of the plate amp.

Sorry for the off topic, but you were the one who gave me the idea based on what you said in another thread (think it was the swarm thread) :).
 

Duke

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I wish more manufacturers would offer something like this. What's weird to me is that it seems to be mostly the HT world that's pushing the multi-sub idea. I'm surprised it's not a bigger thing in the studio and stereo music world, since those tend to be more about accuracy, and that's the biggest benefit of multi-sub(imo).

The two-channel world still thinks that a distributed multisub system is about quantity rather than quality.

And a serious recording studio probably already has extensive low-frequency acoustic treatment such that they can get good bass quality with one or two subs, or with sufficiently capable mains.

This is kinda unrelated, but you talking about manually adjusting the phase of the different swarm subs really helped me this past weekend.

Great to hear that - Thank you very much for letting me know!

Really quite simple, but what I did was turn the subwoofers around so that the woofers are right up against the wall.

Ha! The passive Swarm subs are designed to have the woofer facing the wall. Wish I could say that was due to well thought-out acoustic considerations (like eliminating boundary interference dippage), but the real reason is: I HATE making grilles, and this way I don't have to.
 
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watchnerd

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I wanted to ask whether anyone makes a speaker that is optimized for use with a sub.

Bose

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OP
HooStat

HooStat

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The best option I could think of was to use the KEF RC2 center channel. They are $1200 each, but they seem to meet the other requirements. Perhaps the Neumann KH 120 might work too.
 
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HooStat

HooStat

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so that the peaks are uncompressed even if the average SPL isn't any higher than 80 dB.
I meant that the highest average spl would be 80 db, which means peaks of 100 db or so. Typically we don't listen even that loud.
 

onion

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To avoid stepping on the post asking about whether more than 5" mid woofer is needed for subs, I wanted to ask whether anyone makes a speaker that is optimized for use with a sub.
In my home theatre room, I have M&K speakers and subs. The speakers on their own would not be adequate for movies or music. They are designed for use with subs. They have a range of options from budget to expensive. The speakers I have (M&K 300s, 150) cost more but deliver higher SPL at 4-5m distance.

I don't know how they measure though

At some point I had the thought "why don't I just leave them turned around", and that's what I did.
This is what I did with my music system. I currently just have two subs in a Genelec GLM system but may get one or two more to even out the bass further. I only read about Duke's Swarm system after I'd got these or else I may have bought his system.

What I've found:
- autoEQ is not the be all and end all as there may be significant differences in bass response very close to the listening position, even with a perfectly flat response at the listening position
- furniture like sofas make a big difference. So does shifting the subs small distances (<50cm)
- I prefer using my ears to 'measure' evenness in a wider area around the listening position
- subs turned round facing the wall give a better response
- 'bass absorbers' placed on the opposing wall to the sub at the corresponding position seem to improve the response further. Even though the rear corners have a preponderance of bass, treating this area doesn't improve the listening area as much
- in the current setup the two subs are phase-aligned with their respective main speakers and this happily coincides with them being out of phase with each other

One side of the room is more closed off than the other and has the smaller sub (7350). The other side has the 7360. I may get one or two more 7350s. However, the system sounds so good already, I'm not sure about this at the moment.
 

Sprint

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In my home theatre room, I have M&K speakers and subs. The speakers on their own would not be adequate for movies or music. They are designed for use with subs. They have a range of options from budget to expensive. The speakers I have (M&K 300s, 150) cost more but deliver higher SPL at 4-5m distance.

I don't know how they measure though


This is what I did with my music system. I currently just have two subs in a Genelec GLM system but may get one or two more to even out the bass further. I only read about Duke's Swarm system after I'd got these or else I may have bought his system.

What I've found:
- autoEQ is not the be all and end all as there may be significant differences in bass response very close to the listening position, even with a perfectly flat response at the listening position
- furniture like sofas make a big difference. So does shifting the subs small distances (<50cm)
- I prefer using my ears to 'measure' evenness in a wider area around the listening position
- subs turned round facing the wall give a better response
- 'bass absorbers' placed on the opposing wall to the sub at the corresponding position seem to improve the response further. Even though the rear corners have a preponderance of bass, treating this area doesn't improve the listening area as much
- in the current setup the two subs are phase-aligned with their respective main speakers and this happily coincides with them being out of phase with each other

One side of the room is more closed off than the other and has the smaller sub (7350). The other side has the 7360. I may get one or two more 7350s. However, the system sounds so good already, I'm not sure about this at the moment.

How big is your room where you have placed the Genelec subs? What is the listening distance? If it is ok, can you please share a picture of your room? I have Genelec monitors 8340 as LCR.
 
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