Speaker suggestion for cramped desk

[Bccc1]

I could use some input on choosing a desktop sound system for my cramped home office setup.
I'm sitting in the corner of a very small room (2.6m x 3.3m = 8.58m²) and have something like an oversized floating shelf above me, so the effective room height at the listening position is 1.5m.

Not a lot of space for speakers and lots of early reflections. What I really need is just something to casually listen to music to. What I would prefer would be the best audio quality possible given the constraints. My points of reference are my AOS CM38 in a different room and my headphones (Sennnheiser HD800S, DCA AEON2 Noire).

From my understanding my options would be something next to the screen with high directivity or very small ultra near field speakers, basically touching my keyboard. Those would need to be low profile to not disturb line of sight to the display and preferably be coincidental, as I have my doubts the summing on normal 2 way systems works well at <50cm.

In the latter category I only know of the Kali Audio IN-UNF. Those have the issue that the sub is too big to fit under the display (9cm clearance in the middle as the display buttons protrude, less if I still want to be able to use the OSD. The sub is 13.3 cm), and my display is too thick to fit between sub and sats (Asus PG32UCDM). Of course it would fit if I ignored the positioning guide, but that would ruin the sound and if I was OK with that, I could just buy some bose companion or klipsch promedia and be done.

That leaves me with the first option. On the budget side the Kali LP-UNF look attractive, though I'm not sure if they are "high fidelity" enough. Also their low end extension, while impressive for their size, is just borderline acceptable. I don't expect 16Hz on my desk, but I would like f3 40Hz to cover kick drums and basic 4 string bass guitars.
On the higher end Neumann KH80 come to mind, but those very likely have too little bass. I don't mind putting a sub below the desk, but I'm unsure if a sub in this untreated room has any chance to sound decent. My working theory is, that I should get the bass as nearfield as possible. I haven't found any low profile subs comparable to the one in the kali IN-UNF though. I could DIY something, but I would rather not.
Am I right on this, or does the direct to room signal ratio advantage of nearfield stop working below Schroederfrequency?

I also considered the Genelec 8331 as I assume that coincidental speakers sound better in the nearfield, but those are quite a step up in price and a bit big. If they sound markedly better than KH80+sub I would consider them, but from what I've read that doesn't seem to be the case. And at least without further EQ they would still not go low enough to definitly not need a sub, for that I would need the 8341. Those are too big to stand next to the screen, so I would have to pull them forward. This would barely fit without covering up the screen, but I'd have to sit centered to see the whole screen. Not ideal. Also this is slowly getting out of hand financially. Please don't recommend Kii Threes, I'm not dead set on burning money, even if my wall of text seems to indicate otherwise



So, that was my brain dump. Suggestions?

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't mind putting a sub below the desk, but I'm unsure if a sub in this untreated room has any chance to sound decent.

It does, frequencies are less directional-sounding the lower you go. I have a sub next to my desk on the floor and with EQ it sounds just fine. For a desktop setup you can likely use EQAPO or an MiniDSP for room correction to bring the sub in line with the mains, or Neumann / Genelec's own solutions.

My working theory is, that I should get the bass as nearfield as possible. I haven't found any low profile subs comparable to the one in the kali IN-UNF though. I could DIY something, but I would rather not.
Am I right on this, or does the direct to room signal ratio advantage of nearfield stop working below Schroederfrequency?

Basically the latter, but not just because of schroeder, but also because of how our hearing works.

I'd say based on what you wrote, KH80s and 1 or 2 subs will be a great solution. However, again, you will want to do some kind of room correction to get the sub(s) integrated and correct modes.

 

[Ziltoe]

The

iLoud MTM MKII​

might be a good candidate for what you are looking at. At least the previous version has been measured pretty good and the MKII promises not only a bit more low end but improvements in general. Comes with a Mic. Imho worth to look at.

 

[Sacha]

This ^ or the regular iLoud sound surprisingly good for the size / price

 

[Bccc1]

While the iloud mtm do measure pretty good, I've read that they have poor soundstage and sound compressed. Though that was for the MKI, so maybe I should order the MKII and compare them.

If I go with KH80 + Sub, is there any reason beside the MA1 to choose the KH750 over something cheaper? I do have a Audix TM-1 Plus for measurements, but would have to buy a DSP, probably miniDSP 2x4HD or Flex.
The KH750 + MA1 would be ~1500€ here in Germany. If I were to choose e.g. a Kali Audio WS-6.2 + miniDSP 2x4HD for ~860€, am I missing out on quality, or only on low end extension and max SPL? For example, I know that the KH750 have lower and smoother group delay than the Kali, but I don't know if it's audible.

 

[AnalogSteph]

In the latter category I only know of the Kali Audio IN-UNF. Those have the issue that the sub is too big to fit under the display (9cm clearance in the middle as the display buttons protrude, less if I still want to be able to use the OSD. The sub is 13.3 cm), and my display is too thick to fit between sub and sats (Asus PG32UCDM).

My approach would be placing the sub on the desk behind the monitor, using a monitor arm for the necessary clearance underneath. Do you think that would work for you?

Measurement + EQ is pretty much going to be an absolute necessity going by your description of the space.

Do you have any idea how loud you tend to be listening, relatively speaking? If you're like me at 10 dB below the average person and without the need for the entire office to listen in, you can get decent results out of a 3" class set of speakers with substantial EQ, but if your needs are greater than that it's a different story. You do seem to have a decent budget... roughly how much would you be willing to part with easily / begrudgingly / tops?

While the iloud mtm do measure pretty good, I've read that they have poor soundstage and sound compressed. Though that was for the MKI, so maybe I should order the MKII and compare them.

They are an MTM, so vertical directivity is going to have its quirks... from experience some vertical flexibility tends to come in handy in nearfield, so that's not exactly the ideal concept.

The KH80 looks good with no major aberrations in the vertical, which would be in line with my experience with old K+H O110s.

The KH750 + MA1 would be ~1500€ here in Germany. If I were to choose e.g. a Kali Audio WS-6.2 + miniDSP 2x4HD for ~860€, am I missing out on quality, or only on low end extension and max SPL?

Of course you are (from converters to driver and build quality), plus with a DSP sporting only unbalanced RCA outputs you are pretty much begging for ground loop trouble. You'd rather want the MiniDSP Flex in balanced, bringing total price to a bit over 1200€. On the Neumann side you could try getting along without the MA-1 and controlling things manually (in which case you'd want to have an iPad from about the last decade kicking around, unless you have an M1 or newer Mac anyway). That would bring cost to parity.

Now of course you can get cheaper DSPs than the Flex, like Thomann's t.racks DSP 204 (298€ instead of 649€, though obviously a 19" unit) or the little t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini (119€, Windows PC software). That's potentially a 700€-ish option. Probably not as convenient and polished as the KH750 + MA-1, but half the money is half the money.

 

[Bccc1]

My approach would be placing the sub on the desk behind the monitor, using a monitor arm for the necessary clearance underneath. Do you think that would work for you?

I don't really understand. If I place the sub behind the monitor, why do I need clearance underneath the monitor? Or do you mean to mount the subwoofer to a monitor arm?
My issue is rather the opposite, I currently use a monitor arm which blocks more of the space a sub would use than a stand would. But I think I can figure something out.

Do you have any idea how loud you tend to be listening

I just tried to check with a SPL meter and noticed that it's broken. Until I have a new one, the best I can do is an app on my smartphone. According to that, my typical listining level is 50-55 dB. If I want to crank the volume once in a while, that would be around 70dB. I realize that those numbers aren't very meaningful coming from the smartphone mic and without info on weighting.

You do seem to have a decent budget... roughly how much would you be willing to part with easily / begrudgingly / tops?

I was going into this with <1000€ total in mind, but after researching my options I would say 3000€ somewhat easily, 6000€ tops. For under 1000€ I'll just buy the best I can get, above that I would compare with a cheaper option to check if I can even hear and appreciate the difference.

Of course you are (from converters to driver and build quality), plus with a DSP sporting only unbalanced RCA outputs you are pretty much begging for ground loop trouble.

The drivers and build quality are what I was interested in. I have no idea how audible the differences are. Price aside, I was hoping for a smaller subwoofer. But if it sounds better, I have no issue to pay a bit more. For some reason I didn't think of the miniDSP in my thoughts on quality. Ideally the DSP would have digital inputs (AES, toslink or spdif). A pity that Neumann didn't give the KH80 an AES input. Hopefully Neumann uses good AD/DA converters, the chain from my interface to the sub to the sats has 5 conversions while only one would really be needed if everything used AES.

 

[somebodyelse]

On the Neumann side you could try getting along without the MA-1 and controlling things manually (in which case you'd want to have an iPad from about the last decade kicking around, unless you have an M1 or newer Mac anyway).

There's another option if you can manage python and a command line:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-sennheiser-sound-control-protocol-ssc.38607/

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't really understand. If I place the sub behind the monitor, why do I need clearance underneath the monitor? Or do you mean to mount the subwoofer to a monitor arm?
My issue is rather the opposite, I currently use a monitor arm which blocks more of the space a sub would use than a stand would. But I think I can figure something out.


I just tried to check with a SPL meter and noticed that it's broken. Until I have a new one, the best I can do is an app on my smartphone. According to that, my typical listining level is 50-55 dB. If I want to crank the volume once in a while, that would be around 70dB. I realize that those numbers aren't very meaningful coming from the smartphone mic and without info on weighting.


I was going into this with <1000€ total in mind, but after researching my options I would say 3000€ somewhat easily, 6000€ tops. For under 1000€ I'll just buy the best I can get, above that I would compare with a cheaper option to check if I can even hear and appreciate the difference.


The drivers and build quality are what I was interested in. I have no idea how audible the differences are. Price aside, I was hoping for a smaller subwoofer. But if it sounds better, I have no issue to pay a bit more. For some reason I didn't think of the miniDSP in my thoughts on quality. Ideally the DSP would have digital inputs (AES, toslink or spdif). A pity that Neumann didn't give the KH80 an AES input. Hopefully Neumann uses good AD/DA converters, the chain from my interface to the sub to the sats has 5 conversions while only one would really be needed if everything used AES.

IMO sound quality in subwoofers (as opposed to raw capability) mostly has to do with resonances and distortion. Max SPL capability can be a proxy for distortion but not perfectly. I tend to think sealed subs do better with resonances than ported but that's also a loose rule of thumb at best.

I think a decent option for sub(s) that only stretches your budget a little in a small room could be a pair of SVS 1000 Pros. That's going to get you full range with confidence and the ability to fill in nulls.

Combined with the KH80s that should be quite good, I don't think you need to go for the Neumann MA1.

At this point you can even get 10 bands of EQ in a Topping DAC or WiiM unit, (or a $100 mini-PC for that matter) so depending on your functional needs the DSP can be quite affordable.

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm thinking, don't put the speakers on the desk... Put them on the shelf angled-down, or add a different shelf/shelves, or hang them below the existing shelf, or hang them from the walls, etc.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm thinking, don't put the speakers on the desk... Put them on the shelf angled-down, or add a different shelf/shelves, or hang them below the existing shelf, or hang them from the walls, etc.

Agree - I put my Genelecs on VESA mounts at ear level, really helps avoid screwing up the midrange with desk bounce.

 

[Bccc1]

I have a working SPL meter now and can confirm my previous numbers. Around 50dB(A) for typical listening and 70dB(A) for loud listening. The KH80 have 90 dB SPL with THD < 0,5%, so I have ~20dB headroom. They also happen to be about -19dB @40Hz, so I could theoretically EQ them to be flat to 40Hz. May sound bad, but I will try it out.

Any tips how I should go about comparing speakers if I order a few pairs?
Assuming I will be using the speakers with subs but don't want to order them right away, I would EQ both speakers to have the same bass extension to not subconsciously favor the speaker that goes lower. That aside, how do I do the actual comparison?
I can't fit both side by side on my desk, testing in a different environment might show very different results as how the directivity interacts with my room might be the major selling point for whoever wins and having to physically move speakers + switch dsp settings each time relies to much on my acoustic memory. As far as I know humans tend to suck at that.
I might be able to put them on top of each other, but that way the reflections change way to much for a fair soundstage comparison.
I could make binaural recordings and then blind abx test those, but then I'm limited by the microphones and headphones, so probably not a good method either. If I can't tell a difference by memory, I should probably just pick the cheaper option, but the perfectionist in me is not satisfied with that

For the Sub+DSP topic, I'll postpone that decision for after deciding on a speaker. I haven't found anything yet that seems good enough while also not feeling like a ripoff. Behringer and tracks seem to be good value, but I have no idea if the AD/DA is good enough. The better miniDSP stuff is pretty expensive.
I may end up with either a DIY dsp like freeDSP or just get an interface with enough IO and do it in software. I wanted to avoid that to be able to play music from multiple sources, but it's acceptable if only music from my main system uses the sub.
Subs like the KH750 are a bit big and hard to fit in the room, especially if I want to place two or more. And the smaller options seem to be of subpar quality.
I may end up DIYing the subs. Either something small on the desk to try to get a nearfield effect with a row of ~7 x 3" or 4" drivers or a big but flat box below the desk shaped in a way that it can double as a footrest.
I didn't want to invest the time for that, so I'll continue to waste my time researching my options.

 

[kemmler3D]

That aside, how do I do the actual comparison?

What I've read is that listening to speakers in mono gives a more accurate impression of the speaker's performance. Amir and I think Erin both do their listening tests using one speaker. I guess in stereo you can get more distracted by room effects, reflections, whatever.

So with that in mind, maybe you can put one speaker on the left and one on the right... level match... switch back and forth quickly, make your notes, then swap them and repeat the process. If one speaker wins in both positions then I think you could be confident it's the right one for you.

It does seem tricky due to lack of space, and I agree testing in the actual final position is best, so that's all I can come up with at the moment.

Agree that doing binaural recordings is more of a novelty exercise than a real test.

Also, I would say your SPL readings are probably reflective of RMS but not peak values, so you probably don't really have 19dB to play with. I would not expect good results boosting the KH80 +19dB at 40hz when a bass drum hits, even at very moderate listening levels.

 

[Timcognito]

The better miniDSP stuff is pretty expensive.

The ultimate low cost solution for room correction?

Hello to all of you from ASR, I've been following you for about three years and this is my first post...I'm using Google translator, so excuse my English... I wanted to let you know that IK Multimedia has just introduced a new dedicated product to environmental correction, called: "ARC STUDIO"...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Bccc1]

@Timcognito I think I'm missing something. How does that help me to integrate my subs? The ARC Studio only has 2 outputs. I would need a dedicated output for each sub. Or is the idea to buy two of those and feed both with Y-cables with the same input? One for subs, one for sats? With two, the price isn't that great anymore.

 

[Bccc1]

So with that in mind, maybe you can put one speaker on the left and one on the right... level match... switch back and forth quickly, make your notes, then swap them and repeat the process. If one speaker wins in both positions then I think you could be confident it's the right one for you.

Great Idea, will do that, thanks!
The only thing missing compared to stereo would be the width, depth and precision of the soundstage and I think I can properly take notes of that to compare it.

Agree that doing binaural recordings is more of a novelty exercise than a real test.

Probably. Though it would not really be a novelty. I have read a thesis comparing different driver materials (e.g. paper cone vs aluminium cone) using this exact procedure. If I remember correctly, the result was, that the material choice is not audible. And maybe that result came from the faulty test procedure

Also, I would say your SPL readings are probably reflective of RMS but not peak values,

Very good point, didn't think of that. Doesn't change my plans though, I didn't have high hopes for it anyway. I just want to test it to make sure before I invest in subs.

 

[kemmler3D]

Though it would not really be a novelty. I have read a thesis comparing different driver materials (e.g. paper cone vs aluminium cone) using this exact procedure. If I remember correctly, the result was, that the material choice is not audible. And maybe that result came from the faulty test procedure

IME with binaural-type recordings (not necessarily ones recorded with in-ear mics) the room reverb becomes way more prominent than you'd experience it in real life. So a binaural recording in a very damped environment might be close to the real thing but just doing it in your own room, it might sound unnatural. With in-ear mics it might work great though, haven't tried that.

 

[Timcognito]

@Timcognito I think I'm missing something. How does that help me to integrate my subs? The ARC Studio only has 2 outputs. I would need a dedicated output for each sub. Or is the idea to buy two of those and feed both with Y-cables with the same input? One for subs, one for sats? With two, the price isn't that great anymore.

Many sub manufacturers have added on board DSP, SVS, Elac and RSL to name a few. Elac has some low profile subs as well. I mentioned the ARC Studio because it was designed with near field listening as its targeted use and its cost. In that thread other similar products are mentioned and demo videos.

 

[LTig]

f I go with KH80 + Sub, is there any reason beside the MA1 to choose the KH750 over something cheaper? I do have a Audix TM-1 Plus for measurements, but would have to buy a DSP, probably miniDSP 2x4HD or Flex.

What I can say is that the KH750 works wonders with my Genelec 8020a, compared to the old Jef Sub (PSW2000). Expensive but worth it.

Since we both live in Germany feel free to PM me for an audition at my home.

 

[Bccc1]

I currently have the KH80 here for testing. After calibration with MA1 they have significantly increased hiss. I have them connected via XLR to the Analog Out 1+2 of a RME MadiFace XT. On the backplate the input gain is set to -15dB and the output level switch is set to 100dB SPL. But I believe the calibration overrode both settings. The MA1 system level is set to 75dB.
If I query the speakers with khtool, I see that the system level is correctly set for the audio.out.level, but the audio.in.gain is set to 0, which is probably wrong.

Spoiler: khtool output

python ./khtool.py -i 19 -q
Used Device:  Neumann KH 80
IPv6 address: fde9:1691:8e79:8648:2a36:38ff:fe60:f514
*** query device settings ***
{"device":{"name":"Neumann KH 80"}}
{"device":{"identity":{"product":"KH 80"}}}
{"device":{"identity":{"serial":"XXXX"}}} // I'll keep this to myself :)
{"device":{"identity":{"version":"1_3_6"}}}
{"device":{"standby":{"enabled":true}}}
{"device":{"standby":{"auto_standby_time":90}}}
{"device":{"standby":{"level":-76}}}
{"ui":{"logo":{"brightness":10}}}
{"audio":{"in":{"phase_invert":false}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"level":75.0}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"dimm":0.0}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"mute":false}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"delay":0}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"solo":false}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"phase_correction":true}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"limiter_mode":1}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"enabled":[true,true,true,true,true,true,true,true,true,true]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"type":["PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC"]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"frequency":[97.607,193.930,152.762,55.168,68.669,454.448,1509.093,174.163,244.982,954.570]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"q":[5.681,1.145,4.350,5.842,3.172,2.885,3.523,15.987,8.043,2.865]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"gain":[1.889,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"boost":[-10.985,-8.401,10.493,-11.523,4.903,-3.018,-1.766,-6.431,-3.463,1.025]}}}}

Used Device:  Neumann KH 80
IPv6 address: fde9:1691:8e79:8648:2a36:38ff:fe60:f4b9
*** query device settings ***
{"device":{"name":"Neumann KH 80"}}
{"device":{"identity":{"vendor":"Georg Neumann GmbH"}}}
{"device":{"identity":{"product":"KH 80"}}}
{"device":{"identity":{"serial":"XXXX"}}} // I'll keep this to myself :)
{"device":{"identity":{"version":"1_3_6"}}}
{"device":{"standby":{"enabled":true}}}
{"device":{"standby":{"auto_standby_time":90}}}
{"device":{"standby":{"level":-76}}}
{"ui":{"logo":{"brightness":10}}}
{"audio":{"in":{"gain":0.0}}}
{"audio":{"in":{"phase_invert":false}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"level":75.0}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"dimm":0.0}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"mute":false}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"delay":0}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"solo":false}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"phase_correction":true}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"limiter_mode":1}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"enabled":[true,true,true,true,true,true,true,true,true,true]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"type":["PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC","PARAMETRIC"]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"frequency":[98.003,226.358,54.338,1326.831,132.671,456.819,71.878,691.314,155.159,45.506]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"q":[4.367,2.183,8.068,2.327,11.263,4.066,7.578,4.548,9.944,12.707]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"gain":[1.371,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000,0.000]}}}}
{"audio":{"out":{"equalizer":{"boost":[-13.188,-8.606,-10.367,-2.938,7.729,-2.475,3.547,1.479,-3.238,2.130]}}}}

Though setting it to -15 doesn't seem to change the hiss at all.

$ python ./khtool.py -i 19 --expert '{"audio":{"in":{"gain": -15.0}}}'
Used Device:  Neumann KH 80
IPv6 address: fde9:1691:8e79:8648:2a36:38ff:fe60:f514
{"audio":{"in":{"gain":-15.0}}}

Used Device:  Neumann KH 80
IPv6 address: fde9:1691:8e79:8648:2a36:38ff:fe60:f4b9
{"audio":{"in":{"gain":-15.0}}}

Also muting and unmuting doesn't change the hiss, so it shouldn't really be my interface, cabling or gain settings. Not sure what else is left though.
Any ideas what to do?