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Sony SS-CS5 3-way Speaker Review

QMuse

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Actually @napilopez, I just remembered that Olive gives the target slopes for the top-rated speakers from the sample in the study.

If you plug the slope values for NBD_PIR, SM_PIR and NBD_ON from the "All Tests" column into the equation on the right and ignore LFX, you should end up with a the slopes that achieve the best possible rating, as (IIUC) it was these target slope values that the model was based upon in the first place.

View attachment 65500

Btw, I find these values quite odd. For example, PIR has much higher slope than both ER and SP although one would expect that ER and PIR slopes should be similar while SP should be larger. And then, ER and SP have equal slope but ERDI and SPDI don't, which is odd as they are calculated as LW - ER and LW - SP, so they should have equal slope too.
 
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GelbeMusik

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... just remembered that Olive gives …

This topic is quite interesting. I'm not so fond of the Olive metric, as it is used here on this board. I have the feeling, that it shouldn't be taken too literally and singular. Even for decision for individual persons. At least, I think, it should be advised to look at the frequency dependent reverberation times of the particular room first. The model is a statistical model, saying nothing about singled out circumstances. And second, it is not representative :p What do You guys think is left?

But I cannot follow the discussion, because the whole apparatus of formulas is hidden behind the counter of AES. Would You mind to link a free source for the formulas?

Thank You so much
 

edechamps

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Here I think you misread my earlier post. What I actually asked was: I guess now what I'd love to know now is how Olive arrived at each of the formulae defining each of the parameters. Did he use a kind of intuitive trial and error? Did he design an algorithm that did it (I presume not)? Was some other process involved?

Ah, apologies. English is hard :(

The paper states the weights were obtained through Principal Component Analysis (PCA). However, the variables used (NBD, SM, etc.), and, to a lesser extent, the curves used, seem somewhat arbitrary. My best guess is that Olive just designed a few metrics on his own and then ran PCA on them. That's fine as long as the model works, but I definitely wish he had spent a bit more time refining the variables. Besides the weirdness of SM, there are a few other things that are eyebrow-raising, such as NBD using arbitrary, fixed 1/2 octave-band averages instead of something like a smooth moving average (detrending).

Given steepness of slope positively affects SM_PIR while negatively affecting NBD_PIR, surely this would imply a maximum possible preference rating that is in fact below 10. Which seems particularly counter-intuitive given that the preference rating is "out of" 10.
Perhaps you could share the formulae? Presumably the maximum rating can be deduced from the relationship between the formulae (although I'm almost certainly not the person to work out mathematically what it is).

One would be hard pressed to figure out exactly how NBD_PIR and SM_PIR interact together: the first variable is an average of averages defined over non-continuous arbitrary ranges and uses absolute deviation; SM_PIR is a ratio of a sum of squares, one of which is from a least-squares linear regression, defined over a slightly different frequency range. Good luck trying to model how they interact without running simulations or something. This is why the PIR model variables are so head-banging when it comes to interpretation.

Actually @napilopez, I just remembered that Olive gives the target slopes for the top-rated speakers from the sample in the study. [...] it was these target slope values that the model was based upon in the first place.

The model was not "based upon" these target slopes. The target slopes are only used to define the SL variable. SL didn't make it into the final model after Olive ran PCA. The target slope values are not relevant to the final model. That doesn't mean these numbers aren't useful for discussion though.

If you plug the slope values for NBD_PIR, SM_PIR and NBD_ON from the "All Tests" column into the equation on the right and ignore LFX, you should end up with a the slopes that achieve the best possible rating

You can't "plug the slope values into the equation on the right". That equation is supposed to represent the best-fit linear regression line on the data. a and b are outputs of the linear regression process, not inputs. Once the regression line is fitted, then its b is compared to the target b, and the distance between the two is defined as SL.

In another thread @MZKM and I just had a detailed debate on how SL, b and slope values work.

But I cannot follow the discussion, because the whole apparatus of formulas is hidden behind the counter of AES. Would You mind to link a free source for the formulas?

In addition to the AES paper, the model is also described in this patent which has a freely available PDF. It doesn't quite use the same phrasing and it's slightly more confusing than the paper because it uses lawyery patent language, but it's pretty close.
 

edechamps

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Btw, I find these values quite odd. For example, PIR has much higher slope than both ER and SP although one would expect that ER and PIR slopes should be similar while SP should be larger. And then, ER and SP have equal slope but ERDI and SPDI don't, which is odd as they are calculated as LW - ER and LW - SP, so they should have equal slope too.

I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect this can be explained by the fact that the slope is calculated using a least-squares (as opposed to least absolute deviation) best-fit linear regression process. Because of the squaring I wouldn't expect the behaviour to be linear, so I doubt you can draw conclusions from linear combinations of curves. I may be wrong though.
 

MZKM

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In addition to the AES paper, the model is also described in this patent which has a freely available PDF. It doesn't quite use the same phrasing and it's slightly more confusing than the paper because it uses lawyery patent language, but it's pretty close.
@andreasmaaan
I have this thread where I go over the basics of the scores for anyone wanting a quick overview (with a link to the patent as well). The AES paper is also freely viewable and downloadable, it for sure is a bit less confusing in some instances (like LFX stating in the patent that the Sound Power curve ”may be used” compared to the AES paper stating it “is used”, so it‘s not an optional aspect).
 
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QMuse

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I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect this can be explained by the fact that the slope is calculated using a least-squares (as opposed to least absolute deviation) best-fit linear regression process. Because of the squaring I wouldn't expect the behaviour to be linear, so I doubt you can draw conclusions from linear combinations of curves. I may be wrong though.

Frankly I dont' see how least squares method can explain it. I was actually assuming that is the one being used. For a start ER and SP curves start tom the same point somewhere at app 150Hz and end up at different points at 20khz, SP being noticeably lower than ER. So how can they end up having the same slope?

Unless only a certain range is used, say 500Hz-20kHz. But even in that case slopes should be different.
 
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MZKM

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Frankly I dont' see how least squares method can exlain it. I was actually assuming that is the one being used. For a start ER and SP curves start tom the same point somewhere at app 150Hz and end up at different points at 20khz, SP being noticeably lower than ER. So how can they end up having the same slope?

Unless only a certain range is used, say 500Hz-20kHz. But even in that case slopes should be different.
Maybe it‘s due to it being found via the average of the best performers? So it’s not describing a speaker with the best slopes. Because yes, you can’t have those stated target DI slopes with those states target LW & ER/SP slopes.
 

QMuse

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Maybe it‘s due to it being found via the average of the best performers? So it’s not describing a speaker with the best slopes. Because yes, you can’t have those stated target DI slopes with those states target LW & ER/SP slopes.

So average of best sounding speakers resulted in the same ER and SP slopes? I doubt it as ERDI and SPDI slopes differ too much.

Btw, you have the data from ASR measurements so you could calculate the average of ER and SP slopes for say top 10 speakers tested here.
 
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GelbeMusik

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edechamps

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Btw, you have the data from ASR measurements so you could calculate the average of ER and SP slopes for say top 10 speakers tested here.

Loudspeaker Explorer can already do that :) Just select the top 10 speakers (from @MZKM's spreadsheet) and go to the table under "Olive Preference Score", "Slope", "Calculation". It will show a table with the b values:

Capture.PNG


And from there the mean can be obtained with just one additional line of code:

Code:
speakers_slope_b.mean()
Capture.PNG


These look quite different from the target slopes in the paper! It's a very different sample though. Also note that Loudspeaker Explorer doesn't (yet) attempt to "fix" the slightly wrong weights of ER and PIR curves in the original Klippel data, and the wrong weights do affect slopes from what @MZKM has showed, so take this with a grain of salt.
 

QMuse

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Loudspeaker Explorer can already do that :) Just select the top 10 speakers (from @MZKM's spreadsheet) and go to the table under "Olive Preference Score", "Slope", "Calculation". It will show a table with the b values:

View attachment 65524

And from there the mean can be obtained with just one additional line of code:

Code:
speakers_slope_b.mean()
View attachment 65525

These look quite different from the target slopes in the paper! It's a very different sample though. Also note that Loudspeaker Explorer doesn't (yet) attempt to "fix" the slightly wrong weights of ER and PIR curves in the original Klippel data, and the wrong weights do affect slopes, so take this with a grain of salt.

Wow, this is very impressive and very usefull, thank you! :)

Slope values you calculated make much more sense to me. For example, with average slope for PIR of -1,29 you are getting 9dB over 20-20kHz range, which intuitively makes sense. Slope of PIR and ER is similar and of SP is much larger, as expected. SPDI and ERDI slopes are also logical.
 

MZKM

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Loudspeaker Explorer can already do that :) Just select the top 10 speakers (from @MZKM's spreadsheet) and go to the table under "Olive Preference Score", "Slope", "Calculation". It will show a table with the b values:

View attachment 65524

And from there the mean can be obtained with just one additional line of code:

Code:
speakers_slope_b.mean()
View attachment 65525

These look quite different from the target slopes in the paper! It's a very different sample though. Also note that Loudspeaker Explorer doesn't (yet) attempt to "fix" the slightly wrong weights of ER and PIR curves in the original Klippel data, and the wrong weights do affect slopes from what @MZKM has showed, so take this with a grain of salt.
Are these all done over 100Hz-16kHz?

It is interesting that none of those have a PIR dispersion hitting -1.75 let alone past that.
He must of used a good deal of speakers with horns.
 

tllw

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I think the preference of Amirrm can be easily explained.

While I am fond believer of the science behind this, I think some people are very sensitive to certain mid and high frequencies. I.e. small upper midrange irregularities, hiss and ringing can ruin every speakers experience, while some mid-bass bump can be even pleasant for most.

I am sure original Audio Technica m50 measures better than many cheaper (or not) headphones. Yet I just cannot stand it for more than 5 minutes. Its way too metallic and makes every sounding shrill.
 
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edechamps

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@QMuse your initial intuition was actually entirely correct - the linear relationship with DI does hold on the b (slope) values:

Capture.PNG


Obviously it does hold for the means as well, as can be trivially verified from the second table in my previous post.

These relationships do hold for the values in the Olive's target slope table for ER, but not for SP :eek: That's very weird and smells like something went wrong in Olive's calculations, and casts doubt as to whether the PIR target slope value is correct.
 

QMuse

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These relationships do hold for the values in the Olive's target slope table for ER, but not for SP :eek: That's very weird and smells like something went wrong in Olive's calculations, and casts doubt as to whether the PIR target slope value is correct.

Exactly. Something seems very wrong with this numbers..
 

QMuse

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I hope it is something trivial. For eample, if you swap these 2 rows it would immediately start looking more acceptable as PIR would be the same as ER and SP woud be higher..

Capture.JPG
 

edechamps

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I hope it is something trivial. For eample, if you swap these 2 rows it would immediately start looking more acceptable as PIR would be the same as ER and SP woud be higher..

Good idea. But even if you do that, SPDI + SP still doesn't match LW. Though I guess it might come down to rounding error at this point, as the difference is 0.1 for Test One and 0.15 for All Tests.
 

QMuse

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Good idea. But even if you do that, SPDI + SP still doesn't match LW.

No, it doesn't, while with your figures it does.

Though I guess it might come down to rounding error at this point, as the difference is 0.1 for Test One and 0.15 for All Tests.

That would be nice if it is indeed that. As I said, I hope it's something trivial like that otherwise we're in trouble with this..
 
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