Sonos-like stereo with non-smart speakers, how?

[EdTice]

I'm not sure either . Originally I wanted a solution that avoided running speaker wire between L and R, and not have obsolete "smart" speakers in 10 years. Sonos and other multi-room systems promise they can do that, but you'd need two amps/streamers to do it.

Some additional requirements have come up in the meantime, like being able to occasionally connect the TV.

Multiroom systems aren't perfect though: E.g. Sonos adds an additional 75ms of delay when doing multi-room, and some of the alternatives might not have perfect enough timesync for L/R pairing in the same room.

That means it's looking more and more like I'm getting a standard "boring" setup with wires. Something like a Sonos Amp, 2.1 amp + separate streamer/Raspberry Pi, or an AVR.

This thread has helped me a lot already, many interesting ideas and products.

If you care about occasionally hooking up to the TV, the Amazon products are out. They add about 75ms of delay unconditionally which is more than any video source can handle while maintaining lip sync. Once video comes into play you need to limit delay. If the Sonos amp has a low-latency single room mode, that's great. Otherwise you will have the same problem with it. I'm guessing they have solved that though based on HDMI input.

For your use case, at this point, I would strongly consider a used Pre/Pro with HDMI, 3x SVS SoundPath wireless, two amplifiers, and two good speakers.

UMC-200 (or similar used) $200
SoundPath Wirelessx3 = $300
MA500 monoblock amplifier x2 (used) = $250
SVS SB1000 subwoofer = $450
JBL 530 "bookshelf" speakers = $250
AppleTV used = $20

You are right at budget and are pretty future-proof.

If you are willing to run wires, you can do slightly better because you don't have to pay for the wireless transmitters.

Used Denon AVR (X3500H) $500 (Also cheaper options)
Roll of Speaker Wire $50
SVS SB1000 subwoofer = $450
Subwoofer cable $25
JBL 530 "bookshelf" speakers = $250
AppleTV used = $20

If you are scared of used, get the Denon S650H on sale for $339

The second you talk about adding a TV, you want an AVR or AVP with HDMI and digital bass management.

There are cheaper alternatives to the SVS soundpath but it's the only one I found that actually posts a SINAD

https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Transmitter-Receiver-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B09MCGQ8S2/ref=sr_1_19?c=ts&keywords=Wireless+Audio+Receivers+%26+Adapters&qid=1644419737&s=aht&sr=1-19&ts_id=10110414011

 

[vallandar]

Used Denon AVR (X3500H) $500 (Also cheaper options)
Roll of Speaker Wire $50
SVS SB1000 subwoofer = $450
Subwoofer cable $25
JBL 530 "bookshelf" speakers = $250
AppleTV used = $20

If you are scared of used, get the Denon S650H on sale for $339

The second you talk about adding a TV, you want an AVR or AVP with HDMI and digital bass management.

I appreciate you putting together the two lists with actual prices. The second list is basically what I have in mind now, although I was eyeing the LS50 Metas for their design. I was actually looking at the Denon AVR lineup yesterday, they have lots of features including smarts. The Sonos Amp seems overpriced in comparison.

Bass management is a good point, TV audio is definitely different from music and an AVR would store settings for each input. I had not really thought about that.

And I was not aware of the MA500 Mono Amplifiers, thanks for the hint. Those plus Soundpath look like they would work and add only <19ms of latency. Would probably less convenient in daily use than an AVR and fixed cabling, so wiring will probably be better.

 

[Willem]

My preference would be:
Sonos AMP $800
Elac DBR62 speakers $700
Perhaps two subwoofers, size depending on room size.
I agree that the Sonos Amp is relatively expensive, but you get an invisible but very good and widely supported streaming platform, and a lot of amplifier power. The speakers on the other hand are a bargain for such good quality, and the white/light oak version looks the part as well.

 

[EdTice]

I appreciate you putting together the two lists with actual prices. The second list is basically what I have in mind now, although I was eyeing the LS50 Metas for their design. I was actually looking at the Denon AVR lineup yesterday, they have lots of features including smarts. The Sonos Amp seems overpriced in comparison.

Bass management is a good point, TV audio is definitely different from music and an AVR would store settings for each input. I had not really thought about that.

And I was not aware of the MA500 Mono Amplifiers, thanks for the hint. Those plus Soundpath look like they would work and add only <19ms of latency. Would probably less convenient in daily use than an AVR and fixed cabling, so wiring will probably be better.

Why would the soundpath be less convenient? They are just like an expensive form of wire!

 

[vallandar]

Why would the soundpath be less convenient? They are just like an expensive form of wire!

I was thinking about power on/off for the mono amps. Can be solved externally (have a few smartplugs already), but more buttons to press. Also no volume control on the amps, so low listening level would result in more noise I think?

 

[EdTice]

I was thinking about power on/off for the mono amps. Can be solved externally (have a few smartplugs already), but more buttons to press. Also no volume control on the amps, so low listening level would result in more noise I think?

Standby power on the amps is 25 watts. If that bothers you, you will want some linked smart plugs so you can turn things on and off simultaneously.

In the setup that I described for you, you won't need to deal a volume control on the amplifiers. The SVS SoundPath has a 2V input sensitivity for the transmitter but the receiver puts out a maximum of 1V. That keeps the DAC running "hot" and producing its best signal for "normal" listening levels and even quiet listening levels (and also gives a better signal to the ADC in the transmitter). Where this won't sound great is as at *maximum* volumes.

The X3500H puts out its best signal at around 1v which will be 76.5 (using the 0-98 scale) or around -5dB or so using the dbFS scale. If that's not *loud* enough (and I imagine it will be), you'll have to give up on a wireless solution as going much above that and it's going to sound pretty awful.

One of the reasons that home audio can be more expensive than pro audio is exactly this. You want things to sound good quiet and loud without having to go around and fuss with gain structure. But that requires better equipment than if you are willing to recalibrate things when listening loud and quiet.

If you *do* want to adjust gain structure even further for quieter listening, integrated amps aren't necessarily your friend as the gain controls don't usually have detentes and they are intended to be "set and forget." You will be happier with some 3dB or 6dB attenuators that you can insert/remove for very quiet/normal listening. I really don't think you need that.

The limiting factor is going to be the ability to get really loud, not play quieter. How important is that to you? If it's important to you to be able to play Metallica as loud as a real live Metallica concert, you will need a much different setup than I recommended. I should have asked that before. I forget because most of my listening is quiet. (45dB - 75dB SPL measured at listening position)

 

[TimW]

I've always been interested in experimenting with SKAA stuff for wireless audio.

 

[EdTice]

I've always been interested in experimenting with SKAA stuff for wireless audio.

No audio specs. You should buy a transmitter/receiver and send it to Amir for measurement.

 

[TimW]

No audio specs. You should buy a transmitter/receiver and send it to Amir for measurement.

I've thought about it, would have to send him a transmitter and receiver pair, but I doubt the performance will be up to his standards. Only 44.1Khz and 48Khz sampling frequencies are supported and the signal is compressed to 480 kbps. There are no specs on the lower cost equipment they sell, but the specs for the Dillinger Labs Pro oriented gear isn't exceptional.

 

[TimW]

Another option for the OP could be the audioengine D2 system.

 

[EdTice]

I've thought about it, would have to send him a transmitter and receiver pair, but I doubt the performance will be up to his standards. Only 44.1Khz and 48Khz sampling frequencies are supported and the signal is compressed to 480 kbps. There are no specs on the lower cost equipment they sell, but the specs for the Dillinger Labs Pro oriented gear isn't exceptional.
View attachment 185460
View attachment 185461

These are pretty good specs for pro audio gear. Wireless audio transmitters with A-D-A conversion are never going to be stellar. That's another good reason for the OP to run some wires. However, many people are very satisfied with this gear for wireless subwoofers and rears where wiring is problematic. There are very limited options in this space. Pure analog pro audio gear usually uses "body pack" transmitters that are targeting voice so I don't even know if they carry full range signals. OSD also makes some wireless transmitter products. But at some point, there's a limit to what you can in a transmitter, receiver, and A-D converter and two-channel DAC for $100. That roll of speaker wire starts looking very attractive.

 

[vallandar]

Another option for the OP could be the audioengine D2 system.

Interesting, it has digital transmission (no ADC) and synced remote volume control sender and receiver. No measurements on ASR yet, but the similar looking Audioengine B-Fi didn't do so well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audioengine-b-fi-review-streamer.26347/

These are pretty good specs for pro audio gear. Wireless audio transmitters with A-D-A conversion are never going to be stellar. That's another good reason for the OP to run some wires. However, many people are very satisfied with this gear for wireless subwoofers and rears where wiring is problematic. There are very limited options in this space.

Amir has done some measurements of the Soundpath here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-soundpath-review-wireless-transmitter.21356/
And some more measurements with a comparison here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...path-dynasty-proaudio-ifinity-wireless.30216/

That roll of speaker wire starts looking very attractive.

Agreed.

 

[TimW]

Interesting, it has digital transmission (no ADC) and synced remote volume control sender and receiver. No measurements on ASR yet, but the similar looking Audioengine B-Fi didn't do so well: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audioengine-b-fi-review-streamer.26347/

The B-Fi is very different since it uses bluetooth. The D2 uses a proprietary connection. Take a look at measurements of the system done by Ken Rockwell showing THD of <0.001% which is good enough for me. I have a set and it works great but the volume knob only adjusts the analog output, it has a slight amount of lag before the volume changes, and turning the little knob attached to the little box isn't a great experience.

 

[EdTice]

Agreed.

I tried to pull down the spec sheet for the SVS soundpath wireless. I'm sure that the last time I looked at it, the spec said that the sensitivity was 2V although Amir is claiming that it clips at around 0.6v. So I hope I didn't like to the OP. Maybe they've pulled those specs now that they are proven wrong. I own 2x SoundPath for my wireless rears until I can ever get an electrician here (Running wires through my ceiling involves removing and replacing fire retardants that I can't do myself. I could run the wires!) Although I don't think it matters in this scenario but I'd still like to either back the numbers up with a spec sheet or retract them given Amir's different results.

I think a $1500 budget is more than reasonable for a decent setup. Burning 20% of it on wireless transmitters of marginal quality seems to be a shame. The Dayton Audio ones can be had for less money which might help. But that money would also purchase dual subwoofers or a new model Apple TV or other things that would improve the experience and of course the audio quality would be better.

 

[EdTice]

The B-Fi is very different since it uses bluetooth. The D2 uses a proprietary connection. Take a look at measurements of the system done by Ken Rockwell showing THD of <0.001% which is good enough for me. I have a set and it works great but the volume knob only adjusts the analog output, it has a slight amount of lag before the volume changes, and turning the little knob attached to the little box isn't a great experience.

The D2 looks great. And can be had used for $250. It doesn't seem to be a solution for the OPs original problem though. Of course we've wandered way off course in this thread. Especially since TV was brought into the mix.

On the plus side, it does seem that used Denon AVRs really are the entry level system for everybody these days so that makes it easier to answer these types of questions!

 

[TimW]

The D2 looks great. And can be had used for $250. It doesn't seem to be a solution for the OPs original problem though. Of course we've wandered way off course in this thread. Especially since TV was brought into the mix.

On the plus side, it does seem that used Denon AVRs really are the entry level system for everybody these days so that makes it easier to answer these types of questions!

Well if he got two D2 receivers along with two monoblock amps and passive speakers or two powered speakers then he would essentially have what he requested in the original post.

 

[EdTice]

Well if he got two D2 receivers along with two monoblock amps and passive speakers or two powered speakers then he would essentially have what he requested in the original post.

Thank you. I didn't see that you could multi-cast from one transmitter to multiple receivers. That would be a great solution.

 

[TimW]

Testing now. Center image seems stable and fidelity as good as ever.

Edit: I may have spoke too soon, I'm not doing blind ABX here but I was switching between two receiver units and one connected to both speakers. With the dual receiver setup it kind of sounds a little less tight, especially in the bass. I wonder if there are slight phase differences between the two receivers causing minor cancellation.

 

[AlexTSG]

I'm not replying with an amazing solution that no one else has mentioned, but rather to say that I've been using the Sonos Amp for over a year now, and it's been excellent. I picked it up on a good Black Friday deal back in 2020.

I'm using it for TV sound (via HDMI) and have hooked up a pair of slim Monitor Audio Radius 270 speakers. Although this does require speaker cables, the "wireless" Sonos One speakers I have as rear speakers need power cables to be run to each of them anyway.

While this solution doesn't get rid of the speaker wires, it does give you smart features and some wireless support, while still allowing the use of passive loudspeakers. The Sonos app and amp firmware have also been upgraded a few times since I got it, and I now have DTS support added.

The amp does support up to two of the Sonos wireless subwoofers, and it looks like there's a wireless Sonos "Mini Sub" due for release soon, although it looks like only one of those will be supported.

For TV use the "phantom" center channel works quite well, and it even supports my LG TVs magic wand remote for adjusting the volume so I don't have to go into the app for that. The LG remote adjusts the TV volume if the TV is on, and the volume of whatever I'm streaming if the TV is off.

 

[EdTice]

Testing now. Center image seems stable and fidelity as good as ever.
View attachment 185530


Edit: I may have spoke too soon, I'm not doing blind ABX here but I was switching between two receiver units and one connected to both speakers. With the dual receiver setup it kind of sounds a little less tight, especially in the bass. I wonder if there are slight phase differences between the two receivers causing minor cancellation.

That might get corrected when running the room calibration again. I also wonder if it would help to keep the transmitter equidistant from the two receivers so that they get the signal at the same time. Given the short delay I'm pretty sure there's no shared clock mechanism.