Sonos-like stereo with non-smart speakers, how?

[vallandar]

Maybe someone can point me in the right direction here, my google-fu isn't strong enough.

I'm looking for a solution like 2 Sonos Fives, which can form a stereo pair wirelessly. They also support adding a subwoofer wirelessly.

I know from experience that everything "smart" doesn't last forever, so ideally I'd want to get "dumb" speakers that last forever.

Now what I think I need is two amps that can link together as a stereo pair wirelessly, or functionally "wireless speaker wire" which doesn't exist.

I've looked into the Sonos Amp and Bluesound Node, but stereo pairing across 2 amps doesn't seem possible on either. They can to only do multiroom groups, which would mean mono out of each speaker.

Is there anything that can do that?

 

[Madjalapeno]

What is your budget?

 

[vallandar]

What is your budget?

Total <2k. Though I'm not actually sure how much I'm willing to spend on "smart" things. If there's no money left for speakers then there really is no point.

I guess I mainly want to know what it would take, if it's too expensive I'll go a different route.

 

[vallandar]

I've updated the title to include active speakers as well. Basically any of these would do:
- Passive speakers + wireless amp
- Active speakers + wireless line in
- Active speakers + wireless digital in

Maybe active wireless speakers would be OK too, if they use some sort of widely supported / interoperable standard. I'll keep looking.

EDIT: I think I've ruled out LinkPlay and WISA. Something like the open source balenasound on a couple of Raspberry Pis looks like it might do what I want.

 

[EdTice]

I've updated the title to include active speakers as well. Basically any of these would do:
- Passive speakers + wireless amp
- Active speakers + wireless line in
- Active speakers + wireless digital in

Maybe active wireless speakers would be OK too, if they use some sort of widely supported / interoperable standard. I'll keep looking.

EDIT: I think I've ruled out LinkPlay and WISA. Something like the open source balenasound on a couple of Raspberry Pis looks like it might do what I want.

You can try the Amazon Echo Link Amps. They can be had for $230 each on sale. That gives you $1500 for the speakers. My experience with them was fairly mixed. But if your wifi is really good *and* you are going to use only stereo pairs you might be happy.

 

[TurtlePaul]

You wouldn't consider hiring a handyman for an in-wall installation?

 

[GD Fan]

Based on my poor experience with Sonos I think you're wise to seek another solution. I'll never spend another dollar on anything from Sonos.

 

[EdTice]

Maybe someone can point me in the right direction here, my google-fu isn't strong enough.

I'm looking for a solution like 2 Sonos Fives, which can form a stereo pair wirelessly. They also support adding a subwoofer wirelessly.

I know from experience that everything "smart" doesn't last forever, so ideally I'd want to get "dumb" speakers that last forever.

Now what I think I need is two amps that can link together as a stereo pair wirelessly, or functionally "wireless speaker wire" which doesn't exist.

I've looked into the Sonos Amp and Bluesound Node, but stereo pairing across 2 amps doesn't seem possible on either. They can to only do multiroom groups, which would mean mono out of each speaker.

Is there anything that can do that?

Wireless speaker wire = SVS SoundPath and a million other wireless solutions. But I still think you might be the one person in the world who would be happy with Amazon Echo Link. You just put to Echo Links wherever you want, play your music to the "group" and then amplify the left channel of one and the right channel of the other and that's about it!

 

[vallandar]

You can try the Amazon Echo Link Amps. They can be had for $230 each on sale. That gives you $1500 for the speakers. My experience with them was fairly mixed. But if your wifi is really good *and* you are going to use only stereo pairs you might be happy.

Certainly the best idea yet. Based on the support page (Compatible Echo Devices for Stereo Pairs) it looks they have the same limitation as the Sonos Amp, i.e. stereo pairing between amps isn't possible, but:

You just put to Echo Links wherever you want, play your music to the "group" and then amplify the left channel of one and the right channel of the other and that's about it!

I can't believe I didn't think of that. Sometimes it's so easy to get lost in technicalities while there's an obvious solution.

With stereo pairing out of the way, I noticed that Apple's Airplay 2 actually has multi-room capabilities baked in, albeit with a clunky UI for grouping speakers. I'm in the Apple ecosystem, and there are several third-parties supporting it which brings the price down. E.g. there's the 80$ adapter Belkin SoundForm Connect with optical out (ASR thread here), and some active speakers and amps also support the protocol.

You wouldn't consider hiring a handyman for an in-wall installation?

I can't do them in-wall (rented apartment, brick walls), but I can actually run cables. I would have just preferred not to, as the Sonos stuff looks so easy to use.

However this is all starting to look like a maintenance/troubleshooting nightmare waiting to happen, while getting lower quality for a higher price. I'll think about it some more.

 

[LilSizzle]

Any alternatives for this one rocking about?

 

[fordiebianco]

Any alternatives for this one rocking about?

I have 3 RaspberryPis with a HifiBerry DAC each. THey are running Moode and are feeding 3 amps of various sizes (depending on the speakers/room) and play multiroom via Apple airplay. Works very well.

 

[LilSizzle]

I have 3 RaspberryPis with a HifiBerry DAC each. THey are running Moode and are feeding 3 amps of various sizes (depending on the speakers/room) and play multiroom via Apple airplay. Works very well.

What’s the $ of that kind of setup?

 

[fordiebianco]

@LilSizzle I am not sure about US prices, but in the UK, this setup should set you back less than £70 (Pi + Dac) each. If you prefer to combine to the dac with an amp and have an all in one solution, you could try the AMP2+ with the Pi (https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/hifiberry-amp2/). In the past I used both solutions. Depends on the amount of space/money you have.

Hifiberry is a good resource for Pi based DACs. Alternatively you could try Allo (http://allo.com/).

 

[somebodyelse]

What’s the $ of that kind of setup?

Bare minimum is a Pi Zero W and an Apple dongle connected to whatever amplification you want. I'm not sure how the Zero works with moOde, but it's fine as an endpoint with piCorePlayer which also works well for multi-room. You'll need a more powerful machine somewhere to run the server part, whether it's a bigger Pi, a NAS or PC. Its time sync isn't good enough for separate left/right streamers though - I'm not aware of an open source option that can do this over wireless. It might become an option using newer bluetooth hardware though.

 

[jae]

If you are willing to go over your budget a few hundred dollars and were looking to use bookshelves, just get the KEF LS50 Wireless II. If you want to add subwoofers in an odd spot you use their KW1 Wireless Subwoofer Adapter Kit.

 

[vallandar]

If you are willing to go over your budget a few hundred dollars and were looking to use bookshelves, just get the KEF LS50 Wireless II. If you want to add subwoofers in an odd spot you use their KW1 Wireless Subwoofer Adapter Kit.

Is it possible to set them up without the KEF Connect app? E.g. connecting them to Ethernet and going to 192.168.1.1 like with routers?

The manual and FAQ doesn't say, and the app might not be available forever. The 2.8 stars in the app store don't exactly inspire confidence.

 

[Willem]

I am trying to figure out what the OP wants. How about a Sonos Amp and two passive speakers of his choice?

 

[vallandar]

I am trying to figure out what the OP wants. How about a Sonos Amp and two passive speakers of his choice?

I'm not sure either . Originally I wanted a solution that avoided running speaker wire between L and R, and not have obsolete "smart" speakers in 10 years. Sonos and other multi-room systems promise they can do that, but you'd need two amps/streamers to do it.

Some additional requirements have come up in the meantime, like being able to occasionally connect the TV.

Multiroom systems aren't perfect though: E.g. Sonos adds an additional 75ms of delay when doing multi-room, and some of the alternatives might not have perfect enough timesync for L/R pairing in the same room.

That means it's looking more and more like I'm getting a standard "boring" setup with wires. Something like a Sonos Amp, 2.1 amp + separate streamer/Raspberry Pi, or an AVR.

This thread has helped me a lot already, many interesting ideas and products.

 

[vallandar]

Is it possible to set them up without the KEF Connect app? E.g. connecting them to Ethernet and going to 192.168.1.1 like with routers?

The manual and FAQ doesn't say, and the app might not be available forever. The 2.8 stars in the app store don't exactly inspire confidence.

Answering my own question after some research. According to the manual connecting the LS 50 Wireless II via Ethernet negates the need to onboard them using the app:

The speakers with the check mark are ready for use. This icon will show for speakers already onboarded or directly connected to the network via a cable.

The speakers expose a simple HTTP API, a few people over here have built open-source apps that can control them: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/ls50-wireless-ii-home-automation/154388/18

So at least they won't be obsolete too soon. However from reading the forums I'm not too sure I want to deal with the software issues/quirks the firmware seems to have (ARC compatibility, subwoofers cutting out, etc) especially at their premium price.

 

[Willem]

That means it's looking more and more like I'm getting a standard "boring" setup with wires. Something like a Sonos Amp, 2.1 amp + separate streamer/Raspberry Pi, or an AVR.

Unless you want to connect a multitude of sources, a Sonos AMP will give you a streamer, an addtional HDMI input for your TV and an amplifier that is powerful enough for most situations. The Sonos AMP can be located out of sight for an esthetically pleasing solution, and the only remaining cables will be to each of two passive speakers, and perhaps one or more subwoofers. In fact, you could even use a wireless connection for the speakers and the sub(s), but that means electrical cables to the speakers/subs rather than signal cables.
I sympathize with your apprehension about investing big money into gear that may be obsolete in ten years' time, but in this system it is only the Sonos AMP that would be obsolete.
A classic amplifier like the Yamaha AS701 used with a Chromecast Audio streamer would be even more future proof of course, but produces enough heat to prevent location in a closed cupboard. So my question really is about what you want to avoid: ugly gear in view, cables or something else?