So I ended up purchasing a Cambridge Audio Azur 550A integrated amp off of the classifieds.

[Loathecliff]

You're saying a lot without really saying anything - perhaps you could provide some context?

I had typed two short sentences.
Perception is the mark of the soul.
Enough!

 

[Beave]

What do you mean by the marketing? I purchased this amp because the person selling it seemed OK and it was well maintained, in my opinion. It was purchased because i wanted a 'proper' integrated amplifier that is class A/B. The toroidal power transformer is a bonus, and is often times used in more precise equipment, such as high fidelity audio amplifiers.

What do I mean by "the marketing?" I mean exactly what you said: "The toroidal power transformer is a bonus, and is often times used in more precise equipment, such as high fidelity audio amplifiers." Where did you learn that? From marketing. How is a toroidal transformer a bonus? In what ways is it better? Are there ways in which it is worse than an EI transformer? What is meant by "more precise" as applied to audio equipment?

You're using lots of terms that don't have precise meanings. That's marketing speak. You learned those terms from somewhere. That's marketing at work.

 

[Beave]

I'd say that in the real world it makes no difference in terms of how loud you drive speakers, but the audio quality is the main point of differentiation between these two styles.

Audio quality is the main point of differentiation? What does that mean? Are there audible differences? How are you defining audio quality?

The main point of differentiation, by far, is efficiency, not audio quality.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

What do I mean by "the marketing?" I mean exactly what you said: "The toroidal power transformer is a bonus, and is often times used in more precise equipment, such as high fidelity audio amplifiers." Where did you learn that? From marketing. How is a toroidal transformer a bonus? In what ways is it better? Are there ways in which it is worse than an EI transformer? What is meant by "more precise" as applied to audio equipment?

You're using lots of terms that don't have precise meanings. That's marketing speak. You learned those terms from somewhere. That's marketing at work.

Well it's my understanding that a toroidal design may confer some advantages over a 'EI' style transformer - do you have evidence on the contrary? Since you seem pretty well versed in this field, or at least you do based on the criticisms you've made, perhaps you could educate us on how it's NOT superior to a SMPS or a EI transformer?

Audio quality is the main point of differentiation? What does that mean? Are there audible differences? How are you defining audio quality?

The main point of differentiation, by far, is efficiency, not audio quality.

In my opinion, the sound of a class AB amp is superior to a class D - so that's the main point of differentiation between class D and AB in my opinion and from my point of view and from the point of many 'audiophiles'.

It's obvious to me that you're more serious about how many amps the transformer draws from the mains vs how much sound the amp puts out in watts, so that's fine.

 

[Beave]

Well it's my understanding that a toroidal design may confer some advantages over a 'EI' style transformer - do you have evidence on the contrary? Since you seem pretty well versed in this field, or at least you do based on the criticisms you've made, perhaps you could educate us on how it's NOT superior to a SMPS or a EI transformer?

There are pros and cons to each. Neither is superior in all aspects. Either will get the job done just fine. Marketing usually lets you know when a product has a toroidal transformer but not when a product has a more traditional one. They imply that they're superior, but they don't usually explain how or show measurements to support the implication.

In my opinion, the sound of a class AB amp is superior to a class D - so that's the main point of differentiation between class D and AB in my opinion and from my point of view and from the point of many 'audiophiles'.

It's obvious to me that you're more serious about how many amps the transformer draws from the mains vs how much sound the amp puts out in watts, so that's fine.

Is your opinion based on controlled listening tests or just casual observations? Same question to the "many audiophiles" who have come to the same conclusion.

As for the "It's obvious to me...," I have no idea how you came to that conclusion nor how it's relevant.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

There are pros and cons to each. Neither is superior in all aspects. Either will get the job done just fine. Marketing usually lets you know when a product has a toroidal transformer but not when a product has a more traditional one. They imply that they're superior, but they don't usually explain how or show measurements to support the implication.



Is your opinion based on controlled listening tests or just casual observations? Same question to the "many audiophiles" who have come to the same conclusion.

As for the "It's obvious to me...," I have no idea how you came to that conclusion nor how it's relevant.

I wasn't looking at the marketing - it's simply a feature that i'd noticed later on. It's like one way to have less noise getting into the audio amplification system.

It's my opinion that class AB is superior when it comes to listening to a class D, not that my class D is bad by any means - it's like how the $3000 Yamaha is better than the $350 stereo amp - even though both are class AB, there's still an audible difference between the quality of sound.

Well I've deducted that you are more conservative when it comes to how much power is drawn by the circuit, hence why you said the main differentiating factor was the power efficiency between the two topologies. Were you an EE you might have pointed out the obvious difference between the two, and that's how the amplifying circuit works.

 

[Beave]

I wasn't looking at the marketing - it's simply a feature that i'd noticed later on. It's like one way to have less noise getting into the audio amplification system.

How does it get less noise into the amplification system? Do you have measurements to back that up?

It's my opinion that class AB is superior when it comes to listening to a class D, not that my class D is bad by any means - it's like how the $3000 Yamaha is better than the $350 stereo amp - even though both are class AB, there's still an audible difference between the quality of sound.

So you have an opinion but haven't done any controlled listening tests to see whether or not your opinion holds water. Do so and get back to us.

As for the $3000 Yamaha, how do you know it is "better" and that there is an audible difference? You're simply assuming there is because one costs a lot more than the other. What if those costs are due entirely to 1) increased power 2) cosmetics 3) marketing?

Well I've deducted that you are more conservative when it comes to how much power is drawn by the circuit, hence why you said the main differentiating factor was the power efficiency between the two topologies. Were you an EE you might have pointed out the obvious difference between the two, and that's how the amplifying circuit works.

I am an EE. Or at least I was.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

How does it get less noise into the amplification system? Do you have measurements to back that up?



So you have an opinion but haven't done any controlled listening tests to see whether or not your opinion holds water. Do so and get back to us.

As for the $3000 Yamaha, how do you know it is "better" and that there is an audible difference? You're simply assuming there is because one costs a lot more than the other. What if those costs are due entirely to 1) increased power 2) cosmetics 3) marketing?



I am an EE. Or at least I was.

Think it has something to do with the toroidal design leaking less electromagnetic radiation within the environment.

To me it does sound better - the class AB that is.

Judging by the fact that it's that much more expensive yes, and due to the fact that the circuitry and craftsmanship is of a higher caliber than the cheap amps - I'd say that the Yamaha A-S3200 sounds better than the A-S201, and even the A-S301.

Again, I don't disbelieve what you're saying, hence why i bought a 10 year old amp instead of buying a brand new one for $1000 dollars - though if you wanna spend that much money on one i am not going to stop you.

It's like how those expensive streamers cost 1000s of dollars and i made one my self for $100 and installed Volumio on it, and now i can stream via spotify - I'm not going to argue that it sounds better than a Bluenode3000x, but i'm not going to argue against it either, since i'm sure it costs that much for a reason.

Same deal with amps - I just found a way to do it for cheap.. same with my wharfedale crystal 4.3s which I bought like new for a couple hundred AUD, where as a similar 3 way designed speaker costs $1000+ dollars new

That's good for you then, you should be familiar with all the tricks that companies use to deceive the end user.

 

[Beave]

Think it has something to do with the toroidal design leaking less electromagnetic radiation within the environment.

To me it does sound better - the class AB that is.

But you keep dodging the question: Did you do controlled tests to determine this? No, apparently you did not. Try it, you might surprise yourself.

Judging by the fact that it's that much more expensive yes, and due to the fact that the circuitry and craftsmanship is of a higher caliber than the cheap amps - I'd say that the Yamaha A-S3200 sounds better than the A-S201, and even the A-S301.

Craftsmanship? Seriously? Yep, you've definitely bought the stories companies like to tell. Sounds better how? What measurements would show that one sounds different from the other, much less that one sounds "better" than the other? Again, you're simply assuming that one must sound better simply because it costs more. That's naive thinking that companies love. That's precisely where the power of marketing departments shows itself.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

But you keep dodging the question: Did you do controlled tests to determine this? No, apparently you did not. Try it, you might surprise yourself.



Craftsmanship? Seriously? Yep, you've definitely bought the stories companies like to tell. Sounds better how? What measurements would show that one sounds different from the other, much less that one sounds "better" than the other? Again, you're simply assuming that one must sound better simply because it costs more. That's naive thinking that companies love. That's precisely where the power of marketing departments shows itself.

What controlled tests do I need to tell me that i prefer pepsi over coke or sprite over sunkist? It's my own opinion.

So umm like you've done plenty of deconstruction when it comes to the arguments that I put forth - did you want to continue being an engineer or chime in with your own opinion on what constitutes a 'good' modern day hifi set up.

 

[Loathecliff]

But you keep dodging the question

But he's an "audiophile expert"!

Beave, I hope you are using a 'bought time ledger'.
He's due an invoice

 

[DSJR]

Woah there.... Subjective impressions are one thing and only really relevant to the person presenting them (although others often climb on too as followers - that's how the audiophool side of this hobby works). Here on ASR, you'll be very surprised to discover how many qualified electronics engineers do actually post here, for the love of th emusic as well as the means of reproducing it as cleanly as possible

Tests have been done on modern smps supplies and I was very surprised to discover that *modern types* seem to be actually 'cleaner' these days than a typical linear type supply. I still use Roxburgh 6A mains filters on my older digital equipment despite proving (to myself) that said filters do absolutely 'eff all' to the more modern CD players and cheapo Fiio dac I use in the second system...

The more expensive Yamaha amps seem a lot more complex than the established sub £1k models and I'm sure they distort in a different way, I'm sure way below audibility. Do remember please that as in the motoring world, the luxury higher priced and fancier trimmed models carry a far higher profit *margin* than the pretty certain lower higher sales numbers range.

The later Cambridge amps and CD players always got good reviews on the bench as well I recall. I'd seriously not bust a gut these days comparing a good AB amp with a good Class D. Use and enjoy them as the commodities they are.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

But he's an "audiophile expert"!

Beave, I hope you are using a 'bought time ledger'.
He's due an invoice

A newbie audiophile expert - and a mighty great one at that.

Woah there.... Subjective impressions are one thing and only really relevant to the person presenting them (although others often climb on too as followers - that's how the audiophool side of this hobby works). Here on ASR, you'll be very surprised to discover how many qualified electronics engineers do actually post here, for the love of th emusic as well as the means of reproducing it as cleanly as possible

Tests have been done on modern smps supplies and I was very surprised to discover that *modern types* seem to be actually 'cleaner' these days than a typical linear type supply. I still use Roxburgh 6A mains filters on my older digital equipment despite proving (to myself) that said filters do absolutely 'eff all' to the more modern CD players and cheapo Fiio dac I use in the second system...

The more expensive Yamaha amps seem a lot more complex than the established sub £1k models and I'm sure they distort in a different way, I'm sure way below audibility. Do remember please that as in the motoring world, the luxury higher priced and fancier trimmed models carry a far higher profit *margin* than the pretty certain lower higher sales numbers range.

The later Cambridge amps and CD players always got good reviews on the bench as well I recall. I'd seriously not bust a gut these days comparing a good AB amp with a good Class D. Use and enjoy them as the commodities they are.

Hmm yes, i do indeed have a fosi bt20a-s and it's rather enjoyable to listen to.

Interesting - somebody should really take advantage of the that and create an AVR with a SMPS and class D amplification topology - 7.2.4 300 watts RMS would be no problem with this combo.

I've heard good things online about the 'azur' line - and i prefer listening to music through this amp rather than my avr or class d, etc.

 

[DSJR]

I've heard good things online about the 'azur' line - and i prefer listening to music through this amp rather than my avr or class d, etc.

Then all's well then

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Then all's well then

Don't get me wrong, I was and still am a sceptic regarding the whole 'audiophilesphere' - I just thought that having a 'proper' integrated amplifier would be awesome. Who knows, maybe i could have just bought an Aiyima A07 instead or just kept using the Fosi Audio BT20A-S.

I see this as a bit of a hobby really - I've a Topping D10S DAC, BTR5, sennheiser headphones, PC speakers from Edifier (s350DB), yamaha v6a, wharfedale 5.1.2 with an svs sb1000, in addition to streamers that i've built, and this was the final peace really to 'complete' the art work.

 

[DSJR]

Don't get me wrong, I was and still am a sceptic regarding the whole 'audiophilesphere' - I just thought that having a 'proper' integrated amplifier would be awesome. Who knows, maybe i could have just bought an Aiyima A07 instead or just kept using the Fosi Audio BT20A-S.

I see this as a bit of a hobby really - I've a Topping D10S DAC, BTR5, sennheiser headphones, PC speakers from Edifier (s350DB), yamaha v6a, wharfedale 5.1.2 with an svs sb1000, in addition to streamers that i've built, and this was the final peace really to 'complete' the art work.

Much to my surprise and perhaps disappointment, I'm kind-of coming out of it all now as full retirement approaches. Music is a lifetime given, but the means of reproducing it and especially the arena I used to be in (the more specialised mid to high end) is getting silly now, especially the silly-money high end sold by sales people with seemingly little real knowledge of what the gear is actually doing it seems and who follow marketing and so on (I did try to learn as I went along and from the designers and service engineers I was privileged to meet and work with). All increasingly past history now and I enjoy following various threads and exploits here - and you know what, I'm still finding so very much to learn about in this hobby.

 

[Loathecliff]

The later Cambridge amps and CD players always got good reviews on the bench as well I recall.

When Julian Richer grabbed 'Cambridge Audio' from Gordon Edge and co, I bet he wouldn't have been so keen if the badge had been 'Neasden Audio'........... Hartlepool?
The A-1 was their first effort iirc. I bet boxed and shipped it didn't cost much more than a tenner.
Richer Sounds indeed

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Much to my surprise and perhaps disappointment, I'm kind-of coming out of it all now as full retirement approaches. Music is a lifetime given, but the means of reproducing it and especially the arena I used to be in (the more specialised mid to high end) is getting silly now, especially the silly-money high end sold by sales people with seemingly little real knowledge of what the gear is actually doing it seems and who follow marketing and so on (I did try to learn as I went along and from the designers and service engineers I was privileged to meet and work with). All increasingly past history now and I enjoy following various threads and exploits here - and you know what, I'm still finding so very much to learn about in this hobby.

I'm not really sure what you mean, but i'd think that you can never really come out of it, since we all listen to music to some capacity - although i can see how an individual may become disillusioned and jaded with all the special 'cable raisers' and 'ultra gold plated' cables.

When Julian Richer grabbed 'Cambridge Audio' from Gordon Edge and co, I bet he wouldn't have been so keen if the badge had been 'Neasden Audio'........... Hartlepool?
The A-1 was their first effort iirc. I bet boxed and shipped it didn't cost much more than a tenner.
Richer Sounds indeed

Yeahh great idea, let's just rebadge some stuff from China as 'Harvard Audiophonics' and we can create a new CA then?

 

[AdamG]

How is that derogatory and racist to the nation of China? The quality of 'made in China' goods has been in question for a long time, although its MUCH better now days.

We kindly request our fellow members refrain from using this term here. That’s as nice as we can ask. Thank you for your assistance.

 

[DSJR]

When Julian Richer grabbed 'Cambridge Audio' from Gordon Edge and co, I bet he wouldn't have been so keen if the badge had been 'Neasden Audio'........... Hartlepool?
The A-1 was their first effort iirc. I bet boxed and shipped it didn't cost much more than a tenner.
Richer Sounds indeed

JR was good to his staff I gather and by all accounts (from friends) the stores do seem helpful as much as they can be and knowledgeable in the products they sell.

When I was an LSA at local schools for a few very enlightening years, the classrooms had A500's (one or two had what looked like Arcam Alphas only very cheap and with a different maker's name on them). The thin wiring in some situations looked as if it was going to short out and one or two had the small wall speakers wired out of phase (deliberately?). Powered 24/7 quite often and all but abused as tools for the job, they seemed to stand the punishment rather well