So basically all daps are worthless shit?

[Galliardist]

1. I am am mastering engineer and the point of my post was not to explain the process of mastering in detail
2. I am pretty sure he would agree with my point.

Please tell us what you have mastered. I think we would very much like to avoid those recordings based on their needing distortion to play back.

 

[Robin L]

It's pretty simple.

You listen to the guitar in real life.
Your listen to an recording if the same guitar
You compare them. Do they sound the same?

Of course it is still subjective, that's true, but it's pretty intuitive and easy to do.

Listen to an guitar with an THX AAA Amp, it will sound distinctively different.

Listen to the exact same recording of that guitar with the TA-ZH1ES and suddenly it sounds much closer to what the guitar sounds in real life.

The TA-ZH1ES is just an example chosen because it is regarded as one of the amps that performs very well in that regard. Other amps can do that too

No microphone captures the sound of a guitar in real life.
None.
Not one.
They all editorialize in their own, sweet way.
Nothing can be done about it.

 

[Chromatischism]

No microphone captures the sound of a guitar in real life.
None.
Not one.
They all editorialize in their own, sweet way.
Nothing can be done about it.

Well, evidently something can be done - we are supposed to rely on using speakers to EQ our music instead of mastering engineers. That doesn't sound like a crap shoot at all.

 

[Robin L]

Well, evidently something can be done - we are supposed to rely on using speakers to EQ our music instead of mastering engineers. That doesn't sound like a crap shoot at all.

Can't get there from here. The idea that a microphone can be clear window into a sonic event is a myth, a fallacy.

 

[stevenswall]

Can't get there from here. The idea that a microphone can be clear window into a sonic event is a myth, a fallacy.

Can I put a speaker with flat frequency response in the mids (let's say less than 1dB) in an anechoic chamber and play a 1khz sine wave, record that with a microphone, and then play it back on a different speaker model with flat response in an anechoic chamber and would a person listening to the generated vs recorded tone be able to tell if I level matched things and ensured the distortion was too low to hear?

I think that would approach transparency.

What if I did two tones?

What about three?

What about if they were pulsing out some kind of melody?

Now add harmonics from real instruments.

Sure, it gets harder and harder to control everything and match everything up but microphones and speakers can be very clear window into a sonic event.

There's still a "window" there, but it's very difficult to see.

There is a thread on another forum I'm trying to find where Focal (and there are companies like Genelec with much more transparent speakers) has someone playing a brass instrument live and a speaker playing a recording, and at the convention this was done at it was apparently transparent to the people listening.

I'd love to try something like that with a mono speaker in a very dead room and compare.

I'll concede that many mics are colored and that there are challenges to capturing the "soundstage" with normal recording methods, but just like TVs, one that is calibrated and in the right conditions can present a picture indistinguishable from reality. (There are demos of this with a TV appearing like a pane of clear glass because it's so perfectly matched to the curtains behind it.)

 

[JJB70]

I still have a DAP for the simple reason that sometimes I actively do not want to be using a phone or computer. My Shanling is really rather nice and wasn't expensive. However as a functional device I see no reason not to just use a smartphone. I have a 256GB OnePlus Nord with a OnePlus dongle and it offers transparent sound and enough power to drive my Etymotic IEMs, if it is just about SW there really is no reason to go any further.

 

[Jimbob54]

It contains way to many variables to be measured accuratly. In theory you could measure it by combining several measurements in comparison to an ideal reference (that doesn't exist).

The WM1Z might sound excellent with the IER-M9 and sound like crap with the FiiO FA9.

You can measure aspects of outputs of an setup, but how do you want to measure if it sounds good?

Sony changed the windings of their capacitors and their sound in combination with each other in 0.1mm steps over two years and produced a new prototype every single time.

I think if they just could have measured it, they wouldn't have gone through that process.

Somehow I thought you might say that. So buying equipment is a crap shoot in your mind?

 

[Peterinvan]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

""Normal"" music listeners (Not Audio Scientists) mean "It sounds good" when they talk about high sound quality. Which is not the correct word, yes, but that is the easiest way for people to explain when they mean "Something sounds good". They say "Sound Quality" but often they mean the overall presentation of the sound rather than measurable sound quality.

Of course no human being will ever hear any difference between an device that does have an Dynamic of 105db and an Device that does have an Dynamic of 145db. The Human ear is just not good enough to perceive it so even though, when one is better on paper, nobody really cares. And that is exactly why nobody (except scientists) talks about that. Why would you?

What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like. If you play an acoustic guitar and then record it, due to the limitations of recording (no matter how well it is done and how well it is mixed and mastered) it will never sound like in real life. Microphones are incapable in doing that.

The Headphones turn back the lifeless and thin monitoring sound into an realistic and authentic sound, and most headphones need a colored source to do so.

If you want that flat, straight out of mic/mixing/mastering Monitor sound, you only need a DAP when you need high output power. USB Dongles are more than enough most of the time.

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

But of course they rather sacrifies 20db of dynamic to produce an better sounding music because, why not? Nobody will ever be able to hear the difference in dynamic so who cares.

And the DAP who can do that best is generally perceived as having the highest sound quality, even when its worse on paper than devices with much better measurements. And i this leads us to the initial issue.

Are all daps worthless shit because they measure bad?

They measure bad because their components are designed to colorate the sound in the best way possible, not to measure in the best way possible.

Plug the IER-M9 into an LG V60 and it will sound like crap. Plug the IER-M9 into an ZX507 (which measures way worse) and it will suddenly have an authentic, realistic, lifelike sound that tricks you into instruments that are really in your room.

What do you want? Its a matter of taste, a matter of decision. If you like boring and lifeless sound, the better measuring LG V60 is more than enough for you, of course. An USB Dongle is the best choice, but most people don't want that sound.

The best sounding device i have, by far, is the TA-ZH1ES. And it does have less output power than a lot of DAPs out there. Why does Sony build an 4.4kg stationary brick that can easily beat by an DAP in terms of output power and measurements? Because it sounds better. That is why.

The best portable device i have is the WM1Z. Its not as good as the TA-ZH1ES but it gets, considering its size, very close to the performance of the TA-ZH1ES. Its not there, but good enough for on the go. By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible. Its not possible because it is limited by space, but it gets very close.

If the WM1Z can't do it, because its limited by space, of _course_ and 4x2mm Sound Chip in a Smartphone can't do that. And of course an USB Dongle can't do that.

I never use my smartphone (with or without dongle) because every Headphone/Earphone i own sounds boring and lifeless with any Dongle i tested so far. But of course that is the case, Dongles are too small to fit components like wound capacitors or LCs and they are essential for "good" sound. Not good in terms of measurements, good in terms of how does the music sound that comes out of the headphone.

Even my girlfriend who does have damaged hearing due to medication and is not an audiophile by any means, instantly and without doubt hears the difference between a smartphone dongle, her old Walkman (ZX507) and her new Walkman (WM1A).

Quoting her, with the WM1A, for the first time of her life when she listened to her favourite song, it sounded like the singer is really here, in her room, singing in front of her. It no longer sounds like music out of an earphone and more like music that is really there.

That is the reason why you buy a high quality DAP, because you want that sound. If you don't care about that, you don't need a DAP.

That is why she thinks the WM1A is the best DAP even though, in terms of measurements, it performs much worse than her dongle in every single aspect (including output power).

I think its the false believe that people want to get as close as possible to the plastic and limited monitoring sound of the recording. No musician i know cares about that sound. That is the sound the people in the Mixing and Mastering room have to work with, that is not what you want to hear as a music listener (in general, there are of course exceptions, especially audiophiles and audio scientists).

I think limiting Audio Science to the best measurement on paper is just scratching on the surface. You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

That is why a lot of people dislike the THX AAA Amps. They measure exceptionally well, but they sound boring, lifeless, thin and as far from the real life sound as absolutely possible. Of course they do, they are achromatic amps, its their job to sound like that, but that is not the sound the people want.

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

I compared the Fiio M11 vs. M11 Pro with the THX AAA Amps. It was easy to justify the price difference based on the expansion of the sound stage, the more accurate spacing and instrument isolation. It may be “colored” in some way, but I prefer it.

 

[steveminnesota]

Bought a WM1Z from a friend. It ($3,199 if bought new) sounds like something that might worth $500 at most from Topping.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Bought a WM1Z from a friend. It ($3,199 if bought new) sounds like something that might worth $500 at most from Topping.

I mean, this thing has always been a horrendously overpriced luxury gadget in a fancy gold-painted massive copper unibody chassis, so that's kind of what you expect, no? (The WM1A with only half the internal storage and a more standard Al chassis was a "measly" $1200, of which I imagine about 50% was "Sony tax" still.)

The point of a DAP that rivals the very first Walkman TPS-L2 in size and weight and costs a fortune is sort of beyond me, btw. Sure it's plenty portable by 1980 standards (when "portable" translated to "fits under an airplane seat"), but clearly not short pocket sized and way bulkier than many a smartphone. And heaven forbid it ever got lost, destroyed or stolen. About as practical as having a Rolls-Royce for a daily driver. And I don't miss wading through obscure undocumented manufacturer-specific terminology to find out that "Dynamic normalizer" might be a ReplayGain implementation of some kind.

(I have a FiiO M3K - $79 plus MicroSD card, still pocket-sized, drives IEMs and regular medium to highish-impedance cans well with no appreciable hiss, and there's a Rockbox port.)

 

[monkeyboy]

I like my Cowon P1, but using an LG G8 blows it away, the functionality of a phone is great. If the phone has a bad dac/amp check out the new Khadas Tea, it looks like the solution

Tea | KhadasTea

An external bluetooth and USB DAC/AMP for smartphones. Feed your soul with lossless music from your favourite streaming services.

www.khadas.com

 

[ZolaIII]

I like my Cowon P1, but using an LG G8 blows it away, the functionality of a phone is great. If the phone has a bad dac/amp check out the new Khadas Tea, it looks like the solution

Tea | KhadasTea

An external bluetooth and USB DAC/AMP for smartphones. Feed your soul with lossless music from your favourite streaming services.

www.khadas.com

You need to amaze your self what a USB dongle DAC for 300$ can do (especially for sensitive high LSP lo impedance drivers) or how good even cheap ones 45~50$ are when you won't push hard to drive desktop hedaphones (planars that need a lot of voltage or 600 Ohm's dynamic can's) with it.
See Luxury and Precision W2 or TempoTec Sonata HD Pro and E1DA lineup.

 

[Sal1950]

After near 2 decades this handles all my portable music needs, walking and in-car
Handles all sort of files from MP3, flac, wave, etc. Rockboxable too IIRC.
Tons on ebay for around $40

 

[rccarguy]

After near 2 decades this handles all my portable music needs, walking and in-car
Handles all sort of files from MP3, flac, wave, etc. Rockboxable too IIRC.
Tons on ebay for around $40

Have you rockboxed it?

 

[Klonatans]

I have a Questyle QP1R DAP with two microSD memory cards full of FLAC files and Denon AH-D7200 headphones and what a pleasure they are! I have walked thousands and thousands of km over the years with this combo and always enormously enjoyed my music on the go even if the DAP and the cans might not measure well.

 

[Sal1950]

Have you rockboxed it?

No. I'm no even sure it's possible.
I can't remember what is was I read exactly. Sorry
It's not for critical listening anyway, just fun to bang around with.
But it's always sounded just fine.

 

[rccarguy]

No. I'm no even sure it's possible.
I can't remember what is was I read exactly. Sorry
It's not for critical listening anyway, just fun to bang around with.

It is possible, I have one and it's much better than stock firmware

 

[Deleted member 43123]

Wow, I just had to create an account here after reading such a vast amount of bullshit ...

I am a proud owner of a Sony DAP, I feel it works better for me for many reasons which I won't even get into. But ffs, why do so many people waste their fucking time explaining to people using DAPs they shouldn't ? Just mind you own business, if you don't like DAPs, ignore the topic it's gonna make both your lives and ours better

Special mention to @watchnerd for the biggest amount of crap posted as hard truths.

 

[antcollinet]

Wow, I just had to create an account here after reading such a vast amount of bullshit ...

I am a proud owner of a Sony DAP, I feel it works better for me for many reasons which I won't even get into. But ffs, why do so many people waste their fucking time explaining to people using DAPs they shouldn't ? Just mind you own business, if you don't like DAPs, ignore the topic it's gonna make both your lives and ours better

Special mention to @watchnerd for the biggest amount of crap posted as hard truths.

Don't take it personally.

There is only one true way, and that is the way the person posting does it.

 

[Robin L]

Wow, I just had to create an account here after reading such a vast amount of bullshit ...

I am a proud owner of a Sony DAP, I feel it works better for me for many reasons which I won't even get into. But ffs, why do so many people waste their fucking time explaining to people using DAPs they shouldn't ? Just mind you own business, if you don't like DAPs, ignore the topic it's gonna make both your lives and ours better

Special mention to @watchnerd for the biggest amount of crap posted as hard truths.

I've got the Fiio M3K, $70. Spent $80 for 512GB of Micro SD. It's hard to imagine a more cost-effective server with over 1600 hours of music. I'm an audio cheapskate [the anthesis of Watchnerd], so I'm not particularly concerned with the appearance or collectability of audio gear, but I'm a little obsessive about bang for the buck. To paraphrase Dolly Parton, you have no idea how much it costs to be this cheap.

This little DAP works great as a line-level source, so I can plug it into the Boston Acoustic clock radio in the kitchen or the desktop stereo elsewhere. Can't hear the difference between I-Tunes---from laptop to Topping E/L 30 stacklette into a Yahama RX-V461 AVR to a/d/s 400e speakers---or just plugging the M3K DAP into the AVR. Using the DAP in this way also frees up the computer---there's pause and volume buttons on the DAP. And this DAP is small enough to be pocketable, unlike my big fat smartphone.

DAPs can be very useful audio sources, it all depends on one's personal needs.