So basically all daps are worthless shit?

[Frank Dernie]

None of the Gen Z kids I work with have Fiio or A&K.

A&K Instagram page only has 14k followers:

https://www.instagram.com/astellnkern/?hl=en

I have never seen one in the wild.

Maybe it's an endangered species?

I have an A&K which i bought because I liked the styling and the case but I hardly have ever used it because it is bigger and heavier than my phone anyway, and uses Android and a touch screen, both of which I hate.

 

[Vamp898]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

""Normal"" music listeners (Not Audio Scientists) mean "It sounds good" when they talk about high sound quality. Which is not the correct word, yes, but that is the easiest way for people to explain when they mean "Something sounds good". They say "Sound Quality" but often they mean the overall presentation of the sound rather than measurable sound quality.

Of course no human being will ever hear any difference between an device that does have an Dynamic of 105db and an Device that does have an Dynamic of 145db. The Human ear is just not good enough to perceive it so even though, when one is better on paper, nobody really cares. And that is exactly why nobody (except scientists) talks about that. Why would you?

What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like. If you play an acoustic guitar and then record it, due to the limitations of recording (no matter how well it is done and how well it is mixed and mastered) it will never sound like in real life. Microphones are incapable in doing that.

The Headphones turn back the lifeless and thin monitoring sound into an realistic and authentic sound, and most headphones need a colored source to do so.

If you want that flat, straight out of mic/mixing/mastering Monitor sound, you only need a DAP when you need high output power. USB Dongles are more than enough most of the time.

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

But of course they rather sacrifies 20db of dynamic to produce an better sounding music because, why not? Nobody will ever be able to hear the difference in dynamic so who cares.

And the DAP who can do that best is generally perceived as having the highest sound quality, even when its worse on paper than devices with much better measurements. And i this leads us to the initial issue.

Are all daps worthless shit because they measure bad?

They measure bad because their components are designed to colorate the sound in the best way possible, not to measure in the best way possible.

Plug the IER-M9 into an LG V60 and it will sound like crap. Plug the IER-M9 into an ZX507 (which measures way worse) and it will suddenly have an authentic, realistic, lifelike sound that tricks you into instruments that are really in your room.

What do you want? Its a matter of taste, a matter of decision. If you like boring and lifeless sound, the better measuring LG V60 is more than enough for you, of course. An USB Dongle is the best choice, but most people don't want that sound.

The best sounding device i have, by far, is the TA-ZH1ES. And it does have less output power than a lot of DAPs out there. Why does Sony build an 4.4kg stationary brick that can easily beat by an DAP in terms of output power and measurements? Because it sounds better. That is why.

The best portable device i have is the WM1Z. Its not as good as the TA-ZH1ES but it gets, considering its size, very close to the performance of the TA-ZH1ES. Its not there, but good enough for on the go. By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible. Its not possible because it is limited by space, but it gets very close.

If the WM1Z can't do it, because its limited by space, of _course_ and 4x2mm Sound Chip in a Smartphone can't do that. And of course an USB Dongle can't do that.

I never use my smartphone (with or without dongle) because every Headphone/Earphone i own sounds boring and lifeless with any Dongle i tested so far. But of course that is the case, Dongles are too small to fit components like wound capacitors or LCs and they are essential for "good" sound. Not good in terms of measurements, good in terms of how does the music sound that comes out of the headphone.

Even my girlfriend who does have damaged hearing due to medication and is not an audiophile by any means, instantly and without doubt hears the difference between a smartphone dongle, her old Walkman (ZX507) and her new Walkman (WM1A).

Quoting her, with the WM1A, for the first time of her life when she listened to her favourite song, it sounded like the singer is really here, in her room, singing in front of her. It no longer sounds like music out of an earphone and more like music that is really there.

That is the reason why you buy a high quality DAP, because you want that sound. If you don't care about that, you don't need a DAP.

That is why she thinks the WM1A is the best DAP even though, in terms of measurements, it performs much worse than her dongle in every single aspect (including output power).

I think its the false believe that people want to get as close as possible to the plastic and limited monitoring sound of the recording. No musician i know cares about that sound. That is the sound the people in the Mixing and Mastering room have to work with, that is not what you want to hear as a music listener (in general, there are of course exceptions, especially audiophiles and audio scientists).

I think limiting Audio Science to the best measurement on paper is just scratching on the surface. You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

That is why a lot of people dislike the THX AAA Amps. They measure exceptionally well, but they sound boring, lifeless, thin and as far from the real life sound as absolutely possible. Of course they do, they are achromatic amps, its their job to sound like that, but that is not the sound the people want.

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

 

[Jimbob54]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

""Normal"" music listeners (Not Audio Scientists) mean "It sounds good" when they talk about high sound quality. Which is not the correct word, yes, but that is the easiest way for people to explain when they mean "Something sounds good". They say "Sound Quality" but often they mean the overall presentation of the sound rather than measurable sound quality.

Of course no human being will ever hear any difference between an device that does have an Dynamic of 105db and an Device that does have an Dynamic of 145db. The Human ear is just not good enough to perceive it so even though, when one is better on paper, nobody really cares. And that is exactly why nobody (except scientists) talks about that. Why would you?

What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like. If you play an acoustic guitar and then record it, due to the limitations of recording (no matter how well it is done and how well it is mixed and mastered) it will never sound like in real life. Microphones are incapable in doing that.

The Headphones turn back the lifeless and thin monitoring sound into an realistic and authentic sound, and most headphones need a colored source to do so.

If you want that flat, straight out of mic/mixing/mastering Monitor sound, you only need a DAP when you need high output power. USB Dongles are more than enough most of the time.

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

But of course they rather sacrifies 20db of dynamic to produce an better sounding music because, why not? Nobody will ever be able to hear the difference in dynamic so who cares.

And the DAP who can do that best is generally perceived as having the highest sound quality, even when its worse on paper than devices with much better measurements. And i this leads us to the initial issue.

Are all daps worthless shit because they measure bad?

They measure bad because their components are designed to colorate the sound in the best way possible, not to measure in the best way possible.

Plug the IER-M9 into an LG V60 and it will sound like crap. Plug the IER-M9 into an ZX507 (which measures way worse) and it will suddenly have an authentic, realistic, lifelike sound that tricks you into instruments that are really in your room.

What do you want? Its a matter of taste, a matter of decision. If you like boring and lifeless sound, the better measuring LG V60 is more than enough for you, of course. An USB Dongle is the best choice, but most people don't want that sound.

The best sounding device i have, by far, is the TA-ZH1ES. And it does have less output power than a lot of DAPs out there. Why does Sony build an 4.4kg stationary brick that can easily beat by an DAP in terms of output power and measurements? Because it sounds better. That is why.

The best portable device i have is the WM1Z. Its not as good as the TA-ZH1ES but it gets, considering its size, very close to the performance of the TA-ZH1ES. Its not there, but good enough for on the go. By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible. Its not possible because it is limited by space, but it gets very close.

If the WM1Z can't do it, because its limited by space, of _course_ and 4x2mm Sound Chip in a Smartphone can't do that. And of course an USB Dongle can't do that.

I never use my smartphone (with or without dongle) because every Headphone/Earphone i own sounds boring and lifeless with any Dongle i tested so far. But of course that is the case, Dongles are too small to fit components like wound capacitors or LCs and they are essential for "good" sound. Not good in terms of measurements, good in terms of how does the music sound that comes out of the headphone.

Even my girlfriend who does have damaged hearing due to medication and is not an audiophile by any means, instantly and without doubt hears the difference between a smartphone dongle, her old Walkman (ZX507) and her new Walkman (WM1A).

Quoting her, with the WM1A, for the first time of her life when she listened to her favourite song, it sounded like the singer is really here, in her room, singing in front of her. It no longer sounds like music out of an earphone and more like music that is really there.

That is the reason why you buy a high quality DAP, because you want that sound. If you don't care about that, you don't need a DAP.

That is why she thinks the WM1A is the best DAP even though, in terms of measurements, it performs much worse than her dongle in every single aspect (including output power).

I think its the false believe that people want to get as close as possible to the plastic and limited monitoring sound of the recording. No musician i know cares about that sound. That is the sound the people in the Mixing and Mastering room have to work with, that is not what you want to hear as a music listener (in general, there are of course exceptions, especially audiophiles and audio scientists).

I think limiting Audio Science to the best measurement on paper is just scratching on the surface. You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

That is why a lot of people dislike the THX AAA Amps. They measure exceptionally well, but they sound boring, lifeless, thin and as far from the real life sound as absolutely possible. Of course they do, they are achromatic amps, its their job to sound like that, but that is not the sound the people want.

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

So what measurements should we be looking for to get the "good" sound?

 

[stevenswall]

Working in a college studio, I disagree that microphones and studio monitors sound unrealistic.

Just because they are imperfect doesn't mean they sound flat and lifeless. I have mistaken speakers playing for someone humming in the studio.

This nonsense about coloration is wrong because it has bad assumptions about studio sound, and second because if everything is being colored, it's not going to sound good across genres, songs, etc. unless we're defining coloration as something mystical and unmeasurable.

 

[BDWoody]

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Uh huh.

 

[Jimbob54]

Uh huh.

Better it come from a mod

 

[muslhead]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

""Normal"" music listeners (Not Audio Scientists) mean "It sounds good" when they talk about high sound quality. Which is not the correct word, yes, but that is the easiest way for people to explain when they mean "Something sounds good". They say "Sound Quality" but often they mean the overall presentation of the sound rather than measurable sound quality.

Of course no human being will ever hear any difference between an device that does have an Dynamic of 105db and an Device that does have an Dynamic of 145db. The Human ear is just not good enough to perceive it so even though, when one is better on paper, nobody really cares. And that is exactly why nobody (except scientists) talks about that. Why would you?

What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like. If you play an acoustic guitar and then record it, due to the limitations of recording (no matter how well it is done and how well it is mixed and mastered) it will never sound like in real life. Microphones are incapable in doing that.

The Headphones turn back the lifeless and thin monitoring sound into an realistic and authentic sound, and most headphones need a colored source to do so.

If you want that flat, straight out of mic/mixing/mastering Monitor sound, you only need a DAP when you need high output power. USB Dongles are more than enough most of the time.

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

But of course they rather sacrifies 20db of dynamic to produce an better sounding music because, why not? Nobody will ever be able to hear the difference in dynamic so who cares.

And the DAP who can do that best is generally perceived as having the highest sound quality, even when its worse on paper than devices with much better measurements. And i this leads us to the initial issue.

Are all daps worthless shit because they measure bad?

They measure bad because their components are designed to colorate the sound in the best way possible, not to measure in the best way possible.

Plug the IER-M9 into an LG V60 and it will sound like crap. Plug the IER-M9 into an ZX507 (which measures way worse) and it will suddenly have an authentic, realistic, lifelike sound that tricks you into instruments that are really in your room.

What do you want? Its a matter of taste, a matter of decision. If you like boring and lifeless sound, the better measuring LG V60 is more than enough for you, of course. An USB Dongle is the best choice, but most people don't want that sound.

The best sounding device i have, by far, is the TA-ZH1ES. And it does have less output power than a lot of DAPs out there. Why does Sony build an 4.4kg stationary brick that can easily beat by an DAP in terms of output power and measurements? Because it sounds better. That is why.

The best portable device i have is the WM1Z. Its not as good as the TA-ZH1ES but it gets, considering its size, very close to the performance of the TA-ZH1ES. Its not there, but good enough for on the go. By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible. Its not possible because it is limited by space, but it gets very close.

If the WM1Z can't do it, because its limited by space, of _course_ and 4x2mm Sound Chip in a Smartphone can't do that. And of course an USB Dongle can't do that.

I never use my smartphone (with or without dongle) because every Headphone/Earphone i own sounds boring and lifeless with any Dongle i tested so far. But of course that is the case, Dongles are too small to fit components like wound capacitors or LCs and they are essential for "good" sound. Not good in terms of measurements, good in terms of how does the music sound that comes out of the headphone.

Even my girlfriend who does have damaged hearing due to medication and is not an audiophile by any means, instantly and without doubt hears the difference between a smartphone dongle, her old Walkman (ZX507) and her new Walkman (WM1A).

Quoting her, with the WM1A, for the first time of her life when she listened to her favourite song, it sounded like the singer is really here, in her room, singing in front of her. It no longer sounds like music out of an earphone and more like music that is really there.

That is the reason why you buy a high quality DAP, because you want that sound. If you don't care about that, you don't need a DAP.

That is why she thinks the WM1A is the best DAP even though, in terms of measurements, it performs much worse than her dongle in every single aspect (including output power).

I think its the false believe that people want to get as close as possible to the plastic and limited monitoring sound of the recording. No musician i know cares about that sound. That is the sound the people in the Mixing and Mastering room have to work with, that is not what you want to hear as a music listener (in general, there are of course exceptions, especially audiophiles and audio scientists).

I think limiting Audio Science to the best measurement on paper is just scratching on the surface. You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

That is why a lot of people dislike the THX AAA Amps. They measure exceptionally well, but they sound boring, lifeless, thin and as far from the real life sound as absolutely possible. Of course they do, they are achromatic amps, its their job to sound like that, but that is not the sound the people want.

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

Great subjective laden first post.

 

[Frank Dernie]

By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible.

What do these components do?

 

[EJ3]

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

Huh? The only thing that you have written that I can sort-of agree (depending on how you define "authentic") with is: What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like.

 

[Vict0r]

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

"life-like sound" is subjective.
"concert sound" is subjective.
"that live experience" is subjective.

Those are all feelings, limited to a single person experiencing the moment. You can't design for that. No capacitor or LC (or anything you cram into a device) will create sound that matches all those individual opinions on what the terms you used are. The only thing that defines quality, and the only thing quantifiable, is if the device is objectively capable of decent reproduction. ...and that's where the measurements come in.

 

[Chromatischism]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

""Normal"" music listeners (Not Audio Scientists) mean "It sounds good" when they talk about high sound quality. Which is not the correct word, yes, but that is the easiest way for people to explain when they mean "Something sounds good". They say "Sound Quality" but often they mean the overall presentation of the sound rather than measurable sound quality.

Of course no human being will ever hear any difference between an device that does have an Dynamic of 105db and an Device that does have an Dynamic of 145db. The Human ear is just not good enough to perceive it so even though, when one is better on paper, nobody really cares. And that is exactly why nobody (except scientists) talks about that. Why would you?

What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like. If you play an acoustic guitar and then record it, due to the limitations of recording (no matter how well it is done and how well it is mixed and mastered) it will never sound like in real life. Microphones are incapable in doing that.

The Headphones turn back the lifeless and thin monitoring sound into an realistic and authentic sound, and most headphones need a colored source to do so.

If you want that flat, straight out of mic/mixing/mastering Monitor sound, you only need a DAP when you need high output power. USB Dongles are more than enough most of the time.

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

But of course they rather sacrifies 20db of dynamic to produce an better sounding music because, why not? Nobody will ever be able to hear the difference in dynamic so who cares.

And the DAP who can do that best is generally perceived as having the highest sound quality, even when its worse on paper than devices with much better measurements. And i this leads us to the initial issue.

Are all daps worthless shit because they measure bad?

They measure bad because their components are designed to colorate the sound in the best way possible, not to measure in the best way possible.

Plug the IER-M9 into an LG V60 and it will sound like crap. Plug the IER-M9 into an ZX507 (which measures way worse) and it will suddenly have an authentic, realistic, lifelike sound that tricks you into instruments that are really in your room.

What do you want? Its a matter of taste, a matter of decision. If you like boring and lifeless sound, the better measuring LG V60 is more than enough for you, of course. An USB Dongle is the best choice, but most people don't want that sound.

The best sounding device i have, by far, is the TA-ZH1ES. And it does have less output power than a lot of DAPs out there. Why does Sony build an 4.4kg stationary brick that can easily beat by an DAP in terms of output power and measurements? Because it sounds better. That is why.

The best portable device i have is the WM1Z. Its not as good as the TA-ZH1ES but it gets, considering its size, very close to the performance of the TA-ZH1ES. Its not there, but good enough for on the go. By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible. Its not possible because it is limited by space, but it gets very close.

If the WM1Z can't do it, because its limited by space, of _course_ and 4x2mm Sound Chip in a Smartphone can't do that. And of course an USB Dongle can't do that.

I never use my smartphone (with or without dongle) because every Headphone/Earphone i own sounds boring and lifeless with any Dongle i tested so far. But of course that is the case, Dongles are too small to fit components like wound capacitors or LCs and they are essential for "good" sound. Not good in terms of measurements, good in terms of how does the music sound that comes out of the headphone.

Even my girlfriend who does have damaged hearing due to medication and is not an audiophile by any means, instantly and without doubt hears the difference between a smartphone dongle, her old Walkman (ZX507) and her new Walkman (WM1A).

Quoting her, with the WM1A, for the first time of her life when she listened to her favourite song, it sounded like the singer is really here, in her room, singing in front of her. It no longer sounds like music out of an earphone and more like music that is really there.

That is the reason why you buy a high quality DAP, because you want that sound. If you don't care about that, you don't need a DAP.

That is why she thinks the WM1A is the best DAP even though, in terms of measurements, it performs much worse than her dongle in every single aspect (including output power).

I think its the false believe that people want to get as close as possible to the plastic and limited monitoring sound of the recording. No musician i know cares about that sound. That is the sound the people in the Mixing and Mastering room have to work with, that is not what you want to hear as a music listener (in general, there are of course exceptions, especially audiophiles and audio scientists).

I think limiting Audio Science to the best measurement on paper is just scratching on the surface. You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

That is why a lot of people dislike the THX AAA Amps. They measure exceptionally well, but they sound boring, lifeless, thin and as far from the real life sound as absolutely possible. Of course they do, they are achromatic amps, its their job to sound like that, but that is not the sound the people want.

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

There's a major logical flaw to all of this. You are assuming music goes straight from microphones, into recorders, then straight to file or disc with no work done on the audio at all.

Just ask any mastering engineer. People like Bob Ludwig. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[krabapple]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

This gets my vote as the most cryptic intro of the year.


(The long tendentious ramble that followed, not so much.)

 

[Vamp898]

There's a major logical flaw to all of this. You are assuming music goes straight from microphones, into recorders, then straight to file or disc with no work done on the audio at all.

Just ask any mastering engineer. People like Bob Ludwig. Nothing could be further from the truth.

1. I am am mastering engineer and the point of my post was not to explain the process of mastering in detail
2. I am pretty sure he would agree with my point.

 

[Vamp898]

"life-like sound" is subjective.
"concert sound" is subjective.
"that live experience" is subjective.

Those are all feelings, limited to a single person experiencing the moment. You can't design for that. No capacitor or LC (or anything you cram into a device) will create sound that matches all those individual opinions on what the terms you used are. The only thing that defines quality, and the only thing quantifiable, is if the device is objectively capable of decent reproduction. ...and that's where the measurements come in.

It's pretty simple.

You listen to the guitar in real life.
Your listen to an recording if the same guitar
You compare them. Do they sound the same?

Of course it is still subjective, that's true, but it's pretty intuitive and easy to do.

Listen to an guitar with an THX AAA Amp, it will sound distinctively different.

Listen to the exact same recording of that guitar with the TA-ZH1ES and suddenly it sounds much closer to what the guitar sounds in real life.

The TA-ZH1ES is just an example chosen because it is regarded as one of the amps that performs very well in that regard. Other amps can do that too

 

[Vamp898]

What do these components do?

What do you mean? You want me to explain how capacititors influence the sound of amp?

That is explained in pretty much every single DIY Amp tutorial with examples on what capacitors to use depending on the sound you want.

Or do you mean the FTCAP(2) from Sony in particular? Sony doesn't release datasheets, but they sound very similar to Panasonics OS-CON capacitors (what Sony did use before developing their own).

The Datasheets of Panasonics OS-CON are available online: https://eu.industrial.panasonic.com/sites/default/pidseu/files/downloads/files/id_oscon1309_e.pdf

Here is a small snippet

But they are only similar to Sony's FTCAP, not identical. There is no official data from Sony.

There is also no information about the LCs used neither, nor how exactly Sony implemented them. Sadly.

 

[Vamp898]

So what measurements should we be looking for to get the "good" sound?

It contains way to many variables to be measured accuratly. In theory you could measure it by combining several measurements in comparison to an ideal reference (that doesn't exist).

The WM1Z might sound excellent with the IER-M9 and sound like crap with the FiiO FA9.

You can measure aspects of outputs of an setup, but how do you want to measure if it sounds good?

Sony changed the windings of their capacitors and their sound in combination with each other in 0.1mm steps over two years and produced a new prototype every single time.

I think if they just could have measured it, they wouldn't have gone through that process.

 

[sergeauckland]

What do you mean? You want me to explain how capacititors influence the sound of amp?

Yes please, I need a good laugh in these troubled times.

S

 

[RHO]

Sony changed the windings of their capacitors and their sound in combination with each other in 0.1mm steps over two years and produced a new prototype every single time.

I think if they just could have measured it, they wouldn't have gone through that process.

So, if I claim their product sounds horrible because of the new capacitors ... how are they going to prove that it doesn't or that the product is not malfunctioning. There's no way to measure it. (according to you!) How on earth can you do QC on those things?
I want my money back!

 

[antcollinet]

I think there is a big understanding between "Sound Quality" and "Sound Quality".

""Normal"" music listeners (Not Audio Scientists) mean "It sounds good" when they talk about high sound quality. Which is not the correct word, yes, but that is the easiest way for people to explain when they mean "Something sounds good". They say "Sound Quality" but often they mean the overall presentation of the sound rather than measurable sound quality.

Of course no human being will ever hear any difference between an device that does have an Dynamic of 105db and an Device that does have an Dynamic of 145db. The Human ear is just not good enough to perceive it so even though, when one is better on paper, nobody really cares. And that is exactly why nobody (except scientists) talks about that. Why would you?

What people care about mostly is how authentic the DAP can make things sound like. If you play an acoustic guitar and then record it, due to the limitations of recording (no matter how well it is done and how well it is mixed and mastered) it will never sound like in real life. Microphones are incapable in doing that.

The Headphones turn back the lifeless and thin monitoring sound into an realistic and authentic sound, and most headphones need a colored source to do so.

If you want that flat, straight out of mic/mixing/mastering Monitor sound, you only need a DAP when you need high output power. USB Dongles are more than enough most of the time.

But if you want an setup that turns this back into an real sound, an lifelike sound that sounds as close as possible to the original instrument (and not the the monitoring sound of the recording), you need sound coloration.

Sound Coloration is mostly done by big and expensive components like wound capacitors and large LCs. And they takeup a lot of space and need a lot of power cleanup to work well and even then, will degrade the measurable sound quality.

But of course they rather sacrifies 20db of dynamic to produce an better sounding music because, why not? Nobody will ever be able to hear the difference in dynamic so who cares.

And the DAP who can do that best is generally perceived as having the highest sound quality, even when its worse on paper than devices with much better measurements. And i this leads us to the initial issue.

Are all daps worthless shit because they measure bad?

They measure bad because their components are designed to colorate the sound in the best way possible, not to measure in the best way possible.

Plug the IER-M9 into an LG V60 and it will sound like crap. Plug the IER-M9 into an ZX507 (which measures way worse) and it will suddenly have an authentic, realistic, lifelike sound that tricks you into instruments that are really in your room.

What do you want? Its a matter of taste, a matter of decision. If you like boring and lifeless sound, the better measuring LG V60 is more than enough for you, of course. An USB Dongle is the best choice, but most people don't want that sound.

The best sounding device i have, by far, is the TA-ZH1ES. And it does have less output power than a lot of DAPs out there. Why does Sony build an 4.4kg stationary brick that can easily beat by an DAP in terms of output power and measurements? Because it sounds better. That is why.

The best portable device i have is the WM1Z. Its not as good as the TA-ZH1ES but it gets, considering its size, very close to the performance of the TA-ZH1ES. Its not there, but good enough for on the go. By using 13 wound capacitors and 6 large LCs (that would never ever fit in any Dongle) it tries to get as close to the TA-ZH1ES as possible. Its not possible because it is limited by space, but it gets very close.

If the WM1Z can't do it, because its limited by space, of _course_ and 4x2mm Sound Chip in a Smartphone can't do that. And of course an USB Dongle can't do that.

I never use my smartphone (with or without dongle) because every Headphone/Earphone i own sounds boring and lifeless with any Dongle i tested so far. But of course that is the case, Dongles are too small to fit components like wound capacitors or LCs and they are essential for "good" sound. Not good in terms of measurements, good in terms of how does the music sound that comes out of the headphone.

Even my girlfriend who does have damaged hearing due to medication and is not an audiophile by any means, instantly and without doubt hears the difference between a smartphone dongle, her old Walkman (ZX507) and her new Walkman (WM1A).

Quoting her, with the WM1A, for the first time of her life when she listened to her favourite song, it sounded like the singer is really here, in her room, singing in front of her. It no longer sounds like music out of an earphone and more like music that is really there.

That is the reason why you buy a high quality DAP, because you want that sound. If you don't care about that, you don't need a DAP.

That is why she thinks the WM1A is the best DAP even though, in terms of measurements, it performs much worse than her dongle in every single aspect (including output power).

I think its the false believe that people want to get as close as possible to the plastic and limited monitoring sound of the recording. No musician i know cares about that sound. That is the sound the people in the Mixing and Mastering room have to work with, that is not what you want to hear as a music listener (in general, there are of course exceptions, especially audiophiles and audio scientists).

I think limiting Audio Science to the best measurement on paper is just scratching on the surface. You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

That is why a lot of people dislike the THX AAA Amps. They measure exceptionally well, but they sound boring, lifeless, thin and as far from the real life sound as absolutely possible. Of course they do, they are achromatic amps, its their job to sound like that, but that is not the sound the people want.

Most people do know how instruments sound in real life, they do know how bands sound life when being on a concert, they want _that_ sound and that sound is only capable with sound coloration done by big wounded capacitors and LCs who do barely fit into DAPs and of course not into dongles.

So much bull in one wall of text.

 

[BDWoody]

You want that your music sounds best, and then, when you archived that, you want to make it the highest quality possible.

So, you want for the recording and mastering engineer to put their best work into final form, then dose it up with distortion to make it better?

Are you sure every piece of music ever recorded needs the same treatment?

I think if they just could have measured it, they wouldn't have gone through that process.

You don't think Sony has the capability of measuring something that produces an audible change?