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Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

I always thought of controlled directivity as a key to being able to apply eq.

But dipole and cardioid tecniques to achieve this mean less room interaction and hence less need for eq?

Under 100Hz, multiple bass sources is still the best method?

That's the idea, yes. Below 100hz multiple bass sources is at least the most feasible, since almost no cardioid subwoofers for the domestic market exist. This is a niche I have considered as well, but unsure if enough people understand the point and/or are willing to sacrifice the loss of efficiency.
 
That's the idea, yes. Below 100hz multiple bass sources is at least the most feasible, since almost no cardioid subwoofers for the domestic market exist. This is a niche I have considered as well, but unsure if enough people understand the point and/or are willing to sacrifice the loss of efficiency.
Is there a demonstration that shows how cardioid subwoofers in domestic rooms achieve better results than multiple omni subs? I cannot quite get my head around it. Would the subs need to be much larger for the same output? Would you need more or less of them?
 
Is there a demonstration that shows how cardioid subwoofers in domestic rooms achieve better results than multiple omni subs? I cannot quite get my head around it. Would the subs need to be much larger for the same output? Would you need more or less of them?

I am not aware of such a demonstration. They would typically be active with at least one driver used to create the cardioid effect, so from that perspective it would be less effective than traditional subwoofers, where that driver could have been used for actual output. But if the cardioid effect could help you get more even response, it might still be worth it.
 
Not to derail the thread completely, but we have actually had a cardioid subwoofer on the drawing board for some time. Not sure when/if it will actually be realized. But it would probably kick ass. :D Drivers are presumably 12".

1701038091002.png
 
Not to derail the thread completely, but we have actually had a cardioid subwoofer on the drawing board for some time. Not sure when/if it will actually be realized. But it would probably kick ass. :D Drivers are presumably 12".

View attachment 329638

Awesome.
If you made them as a stand for the Manta then your tower would be done! :p
 
Awesome.
If you made them as a stand for the Manta then your tower would be done! :p

Perhaps with two woofers in opposition for vibration cancellation? Maybe even with a provision for bolting the Manta to the SubStand?

Or as a possible alternative, a metal-frame stand that straddles the subwoofer, such that there is zero contact between subwoofer and Manta.
 
That's the idea, yes. Below 100hz multiple bass sources is at least the most feasible, since almost no cardioid subwoofers for the domestic market exist. This is a niche I have considered as well, but unsure if enough people understand the point and/or are willing to sacrifice the loss of efficiency.
My understanding was that cardioid is beneficial down to around 40Hz, and then when the bass becomes non-directional, that is when you make the transition to monopole. Thoughts @sigbergaudio ?
 
Well, you are entitled to your opinion and your wants of course! :) IMO, if you are that serious about your system, you would obviously like to have even frequency response below 100hz as well. And if you're able to do that with only two speakers you are very lucky with setup and placement. If you want a really high SPL, high quality setup, it would make a lot of sense to employ at least two subwoofers.

A Manta + two 10D system would be exactly what you are looking for. Eliminating that option because you've decided you don't want subs, now that's a missed opportunity. :D
We are definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Full range floorstander mains for me, period. And I am VERY serious about this, just take a look at my old end game thread, this should not be in question. And yes, you can do with only two speakers if they are designed properly. I know, I have already heard them, including cardioid down to 40 Hz, then sealed monopole below. All I the same speaker. It is possible.

So not a missed opportunity at all.

With above said, i will still run subs, but again for high output LFE reinforcement at the lowest freq, not because it is a must for full range music listening. We are talking 18 or 21” drivers in this case.
 
My understanding was that cardioid is beneficial down to around 40Hz, and then when the bass becomes non-directional, that is when you make the transition to monopole. Thoughts @sigbergaudio ?

Well, I would say bass becomes omnidirectional way before that. Look at the typical polar plot, and I would say it's more like 150-200hz.
 
We are definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Full range floorstander mains for me, period. And I am VERY serious about this, just take a look at my old end game thread, this should not be in question. And yes, you can do with only two speakers if they are designed properly. I know, I have already heard them, including cardioid down to 40 Hz, then sealed monopole below. All I the same speaker. It is possible.

So not a missed opportunity at all.

With above said, i will still run subs, but again for high output LFE reinforcement at the lowest freq, not because it is a must for full range music listening. We are talking 18 or 21” drivers in this case.

Even response below 100hz from just two speakers isn't something you can just fix by having them "designed properly". But of course, if you are lucky with the room and placement it is possible for a limited sweet spot, ref the 10-200hz graph in the first post of this thread. But in most rooms you will see at least one unfixable dip, and you will not have a similar response over a very large area.

And of course, for some a subwoofer just isn't an option, for whatever reason. That's one of the main reasons I'm looking into the speakers this thread is about. But a tower with something like dual 10" or dual 12" would simply be too big, too expensive and have a very limited audience. There would also be added complexity to the logistics of shipping and handling I'm just not prepared to work with right now. :)

Dual 8" is more than most towers have, and it's also important not to be blind to just the driver size. As mentioned these drivers are essentially subwoofer drivers, and will wipe the floor with most 8" you will find in traditional towers out there.

1701067166680.png
 
Depends how far you sit away from the speakers but I would suggest in the U.K at least 4-5m metres would be the furthest with ‘most’ listening between 2.5-3.5 metres away and 95dB at that distance is loud , very loud with possible permanent hearing damage after just an hour of exposure.
83dB is considered loud in mixing/mastering if you are working eight hours a day behind a desk.
Keith
 
Depends how far you sit away from the speakers but I would suggest in the U.K at least 4-5m metres would be the furthest with ‘most’ listening between 2.5-3.5 metres away and 95dB at that distance is loud , very loud with possible permanent hearing damage after just an hour of exposure.
83dB is considered loud in mixing/mastering if you are working eight hours a day behind a desk.
Keith
Is that spl attainable in the cardioid design? If so, please make it cardioid.
 
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canton_digital_1.jpg

Your design reminds of this behemoth i saw in 1995, the Canton Digital 1, for 15 000 Deutsche Mark.

You had to have a computer:
p02.jpg


And you had to buy a measurement microphone and install the Canton application to program the DSP-Box:
p20.jpg


If you did it right, you could extend the bass down and at the same time reduce maximum membrane excursion and distortion:
p04.jpg



The DSP allowed you to flatten the frequency response as well as improve impulsive response:
p06.jpg


Back then i didn't fully understand the implications of DSP correction.

Anyway. Just saying.
Go on then. :cool:
 
Even response below 100hz from just two speakers isn't something you can just fix by having them "designed properly". But of course, if you are lucky with the room and placement it is possible for a limited sweet spot, ref the 10-200hz graph in the first post of this thread. But in most rooms you will see at least one unfixable dip, and you will not have a similar response over a very large area.

And of course, for some a subwoofer just isn't an option, for whatever reason. That's one of the main reasons I'm looking into the speakers this thread is about. But a tower with something like dual 10" or dual 12" would simply be too big, too expensive and have a very limited audience. There would also be added complexity to the logistics of shipping and handling I'm just not prepared to work with right now. :)

Dual 8" is more than most towers have, and it's also important not to be blind to just the driver size. As mentioned these drivers are essentially subwoofer drivers, and will wipe the floor with most 8" you will find in traditional towers out there.

View attachment 329715
I like multiple smaller drivers. I do think line array cardioid will be the future maybe. Have you ever thought of that as a design experiment?
 
Even response below 100hz from just two speakers isn't something you can just fix by having them "designed properly". But of course, if you are lucky with the room and placement it is possible for a limited sweet spot, ref the 10-200hz graph in the first post of this thread. But in most rooms you will see at least one unfixable dip, and you will not have a similar response over a very large area.

And of course, for some a subwoofer just isn't an option, for whatever reason. That's one of the main reasons I'm looking into the speakers this thread is about. But a tower with something like dual 10" or dual 12" would simply be too big, too expensive and have a very limited audience. There would also be added complexity to the logistics of shipping and handling I'm just not prepared to work with right now. :)

Dual 8" is more than most towers have, and it's also important not to be blind to just the driver size. As mentioned these drivers are essentially subwoofer drivers, and will wipe the floor with most 8" you will find in traditional towers out there.
Again, we will have to agree to disagree, and that’s OK. And limited audience for a dual 10 or 12”? You might be surprised ;)

No doubt the 8” drivers you are using are very good, I never questioned that, but cone area is cone area, physics is physics, only so much you can achieve with more excursion (with smaller area) before you start running into other issues.

Anyway, really great you are considering a floorstander design, definitley going in the right direction! And also great to see another speaker company embracing the “magic” of cardioid, and with a superb design at that. Well done sir. Hope to hear one of your designs some day. Any plans to be at any of the upcoming US audio shows?
 
Why no woofers in the back for cardioid?

The woofers in the back of your Dutch Dutch doesn't do cardioid, they are regular sealed woofers.
 
I like multiple smaller drivers. I do think line array cardioid will be the future maybe. Have you ever thought of that as a design experiment?
I don't like multiple smaller drivers. :) It adds complexity and risk of problems both during production and down the line.

I am also not convinced that line array is any point in a domestic / living room situation.
 
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