Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

[ryanosaur]

Wait now,philharmonic's audio Scanspeak 26W/8861T00 10" (if I'm not mistaken by the size Edit,I am it's the 8" one)

Correct, 8” Revelator.
They are very good Drivers but do still have their limits.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Correct, 8” Revelator.
They are very good Drivers but do still have their limits.

Relevators are good drivers, but not necessarily the most cost effective option. And the 22W (8") revelators aren't really better suited to this speaker (that this thread is about) than the driver we are already using. They could theoretically play louder at higher frequencies, but in this application with the need for high SPL / low roll-off down to 20hz in a relatively compact box, I wouldn't be able to really utilize that.

 

[poopy]

Sigberg Audio has never been a budget option, and that has also never been the objective. We aim to create innovative and truly great speakers and speaker systems. As always it is up to the individual to consider what is offered and evaluate against the competition.

Personally I'm very confident our current products provide a combination of accurate in-room sound and an inspiring listening experience that is hard to find elsewhere. The story of @poopy who basically flew around Europe to audit the competition is a great example of that.

These speakers will not be different.

Thanks for referring to my story or rather journey which was not only pleasurable but also very enlightening

I guess here in Europe we are somewhat privileged people. Easy to get from one capital city to another one at a ridiculous price (thanks Ryanair!) to see and listen to what the competition has to offer for an equivalent budget. For European people, a trip to London would be enough. There, you could demo all the usual suspects in terms of active speakers, including any Sigberg Audio products (in Purite Audio). Sightseeing there is also amazing if some spare time....

Enlightening this journey because it comforted me on the fact that buying a pair of active speakers based solely on measurements may be a mistake. My journey showed me that amongst all the best measuring active speakers, there are clear differences in tonality, stereo imaging, etc.

What I could see with the Manta is that they are somewhat optimised to create a big, wide and deep soundstage. Remarkable. Something I couldn't find with the most praised active speakers on this website.

Further, some of the highly praised 3-way speakers on this website clearly don't have the capacity to reproduce some quality bass IMO. Since they would need a sub, why not instead go for true 4-way optimized speakers like the Manta? This is the most optimal choice.

So yes, Sigberg Audio speakers definitely offers a different listening experience.

 

[ryanosaur]

Relevators are good drivers, but not necessarily the most cost effective option. And the 22W (8") revelators aren't really better suited to this speaker (that this thread is about) than the driver we are already using. They could theoretically play louder at higher frequencies, but in this application with the need for high SPL / low roll-off down to 20hz in a relatively compact box, I wouldn't be able to really utilize that.

Agree completely.
I remember when I was first learning about your gear and Sica. My initial knee-jerk reaction was "this is just another guy jumping on the Pro Driver bandwagon."

The key part is that every choice you make has to make sense as part of the greater whole, and in Sica, you found some very impressive Drivers that do what you want them to do within the parameters of your design. That much is absolutely apparent just by seeing your measurements.
Comparatively, every time I see a review thread and people question Driver selection when there isn't anything wrong with the choices made, it gets a little funny. Certainly it may have a place in the conversation about matching Drivers from one model Speaker to the next within a given lineup. To this I can point easily at a certain Speaker company I happen to favor changing from a well known Ribbon Tweeter to an AMT for some newer designs, and then adding a dedicated Center which doesn't use any similar Woofer or Mid as shared components, only that AMT. Yet when people hear them, they match.
Point is that there are many ways to cook that egg, and the only one that really matters is the one that satisfies the design goal. This rather than comparing to what another company uses and asking why you aren't following that same recipe:
"He uses Seas, why not you?" Or, "you switched from Scan to SB Acoustics, so why aren't you using the 9.5" SB Woof instead of the 8" Scan?" Or has already been brought up, why not use the "best" in Purifi?

For me, as I said in agreement to the post I quoted previously, the 8" Revelator does have its limits. While I wouldn't run out to upgrade just because I have found some of those limits on occasion, I do know they exist. Even seeing some measurements of a finished design using these Drivers, one can see some Compression /Distortion artifacts cropping up. That doesn't make it a bad Driver, but perhaps not necessarily, as you suggest Thorbjørn, the right one for every design... or yours.

In the end, you aren't just hopping on the Pro Driver bandwagon. As I learned from other discussion with you, you have very deliberately sought out Drivers to fill specific roles and meet specific goals. Your designs bear this out; reviews and measurements confirm and show the success you've had in your design philosophy and building some very nice gear.

 

[MKR]

For those who want crazy SPL and dynamics, A 4-way monitor+subwoofer system is the way to go, and as you know we already have that covered.

Disagree, this is a missed opportunity to develop a flagship floorstander where subwoofers are NOT needed. Please realize not all of us crazy audiophiles are a fan of placing 30 (exaggeration obviously, trying to make a point) subwoofers all over the room and rather want an all in one solution. On the other hand, for lowest freq for HT (LFE), I would plan to use a couple subs, but only for ~<25Hz high output HT, not critical music listening. I am only interested in floorstanders that are minimum flat to 20Hz at high output levels.

 

[617]

The woofers / woofer enclosure is not cardioid. That would ruin the efficiency / performance below 100hz. The current plan for this speaker is cardioid above ~200-250hz (the woofers cross over to the coax around this frequency).

If you are looking for one of the widest band cardioid systems available, please have a look at the Sigberg Audio MANTA:

MANTA Cardioid Active Speaker system

wideband Cardioid speakers, high end studio monitor, dynamic range premium active speaker, designed for subwoofers

www.sigbergaudio.no

We also have a development thread for the MANTA here on ASR:

Sigberg Audio Manta (12" wideband cardioid active speakers) development thread

It's time for a new build/prototype thread! Thank you to everyone who followed our previous threads (Inkognito subwoofer, 10D subwoofer & SBS.1 Active speakers), all those products are now commercialized and available for purchase world-wide from our website. :D Our next project is the Sigberg...

www.audiosciencereview.com

What's your opinion on directivity control below the Schroeder frequency? It never made sense to me.

 

[Soniclife]

What's your opinion on directivity control below the Schroeder frequency? It never made sense to me.

I was going to ask and say the same. Obviously that frequency changes for different rooms so you need to aim low to catch all rooms.

 

[holdingpants01]

what's the difference between 250Hz and up cardioid speaker and a conventional one with constant directivity above 250Hz, like for example Genelec 8361, Neumann KH420?

 

[Purité Audio]

In room measurements are much tidier ( in the cardioid region) with cardioid designs in my experience.
Keith

 

[sigbergaudio]

Disagree, this is a missed opportunity to develop a flagship floorstander where subwoofers are NOT needed. Please realize not all of us crazy audiophiles are a fan of placing 30 (exaggeration obviously, trying to make a point) subwoofers all over the room and rather want an all in one solution. On the other hand, for lowest freq for HT (LFE), I would plan to use a couple subs, but only for ~<25Hz high output HT, not critical music listening. I am only interested in floorstanders that are minimum flat to 20Hz at high output levels.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion and your wants of course! IMO, if you are that serious about your system, you would obviously like to have even frequency response below 100hz as well. And if you're able to do that with only two speakers you are very lucky with setup and placement. If you want a really high SPL, high quality setup, it would make a lot of sense to employ at least two subwoofers.

A Manta + two 10D system would be exactly what you are looking for. Eliminating that option because you've decided you don't want subs, now that's a missed opportunity.

 

[holdingpants01]

In room measurements are much tidier ( in the cardioid region) with cardioid designs in my experience.
Keith

I meant what makes this any more "cardioid" than non-cardioid designs with similar polar pattern? My system is capable to do cardioid pattern down to 50Hz and I know it's benefits, but system that works from 250Hz and up is just controlled directivity, right?

 

[sigbergaudio]

What's your opinion on directivity control below the Schroeder frequency? It never made sense to me.

I think it is most beneficial in the range between 100-500hz, so the transition area where you often have dips and peaks caused by the room, but in practice it's difficult to remedy with EQ. In the lower range (100-300hz), it also becomes difficult to fix with acoustic treatment.

I have knowledgable people badgering me to build cardioid subs, which we know works well in PA systems and concerts, I haven't really tested it in a small domestic room. Perhaps one day.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I meant what makes this any more "cardioid" than non-cardioid designs with similar polar pattern? My system is capable to do cardioid pattern down to 50Hz and I know it's benefits, but system that works from 250Hz and up is just controlled directivity, right?

I guess we could call it a controlled directivity design or something instead.

 

[dualazmak]

I have knowledgable people badgering me to build cardioid subs, which we know works well in PA systems and concerts, I haven't really tested it in a small domestic room. Perhaps one day.

I essentially agree with your point.

In my setup in a typical(?) domestic room in Japan (with asymmetric furniture alignments and fairly enough sound deadening spaces and acoustic treatments though, ref. here), maybe I will still need L&R heavy and large subwoofers for very limited music tracks (e.g. excellent low-distortion reproduction of 16 Hz - 37 Hz pipe organ tones, ref. here and here), even after I might have installed your new revolutional SPs fulfilling your present specification targets.

Edit: Just for your (our) possible interest and reference, Yamaha used to produce NS-500YST intending(!) to cover 22 Hz - 30 kHz, 92 dB/W/m; unfortunately I have never auditioned it.

 

[ryanosaur]

Silly question, but isn't Cardioid specifically referring to how the polar plot looks, more or less, utilizing vents to create the "controlled directivity" as opposed to a Horn or Waveguide?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Silly question, but isn't Cardioid specifically referring to how the polar plot looks, more or less, utilizing vents to create the "controlled directivity" as opposed to a Horn or Waveguide?

I believe so yes. Vents, or potentially active drivers like the Kii.

 

[617]

Silly question, but isn't Cardioid specifically referring to how the polar plot looks, more or less, utilizing vents to create the "controlled directivity" as opposed to a Horn or Waveguide?

There are a few ways to achieve cardioid radiation; the simplest is to allow some of the out of phase signal from the back of the diaphragm to radiate out through some side vents which delay and attenuate that signal. I think of cardioids as 'halfway to a dipole', having the side cancellation of a panel speaker but without the rearward radiation. The compromises with regard to efficiency are similar to a dipole - just as a dipole burns a lot of excursion and amplifier power because of the side cancellation eating so much of the bass, cardioids have the same issue - but much less so, and modern driver designs and cheap high quality amplification have made these designs more feasibile.

Most of the goals of cardioid radiation can be achieved using a huge waveguide. Large cardioid subwoofers use secondary woofers with a delay to do the same thing.

It's a shame cardioids are still relatively exotic, the directivity control they offer with direct radiating drivers in small boxes is amazing.

 

[ryanosaur]

Use of other drivers becomes Beam-Forming, correct? It may result in a Cardioid pattern, but not necessarily. Can also be utilized to control vertical dispersion or whatever.

 

[AudioJester]

I always thought of controlled directivity as a key to being able to apply eq.

But dipole and cardioid tecniques to achieve this mean less room interaction and hence less need for eq?

Under 100Hz, multiple bass sources is still the best method?

 

[prestigetone]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion and your wants of course! IMO, if you are that serious about your system, you would obviously like to have even frequency response below 100hz as well. And if you're able to do that with only two speakers you are very lucky with setup and placement. If you want a really high SPL, high quality setup, it would make a lot of sense to employ at least two subwoofers.

A Manta + two 10D system would be exactly what you are looking for. Eliminating that option because you've decided you don't want subs, now that's a missed opportunity.

This indeed is the goal I think. I would take this set up. Love the manta look too