Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

[al2002]

One more question if I may. On the preliminary drawings, I see slots for the mid range but no slots for the woofers. How do you generate a cardiod pattern for the woofers without slots? Are you using multiple woofers on the sides and back with electronic processing? If so, I don’t see them on the sketch.

 

[OldTimer]

Need better image from the back panel. Can‘t see it clearly.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hello Sigberg Audio,

Thanks for the additional information. The directivity is not as narrow as some other coaxes I’ve seen.

Regarding the subwoofer output, perhaps I should make it clear that a time delay is required in the main speaker in order to properly integrate with subwoofers. As an example, consider a typical apartment dweller who puts the main speakers on either side of the flat screen television But due to space constrains he must put the woofers in a corner, say a ceiling corner. So let us look at some numbers. Let’s say the main speakers are 2.75 meters from the listing position and the woofers are further two meters behind in the ceiling corners. To properly integrate the woofers and the main speakers we need to take into account the time delay due to propagation of sound and also due to the low pass nature of the woofer crossover, so the only way to handle this properly is to delay the main speakers by several milliseconds relative to the woofers. May I propose a time delay of up to 15 ms adjustable by the user. This should not be too difficult to implement in the DSP. thats already in the main speakers.

I like this concept and look forward to further developments. Do you have a target price or date in mind?

I'm aware of this. Beyond that, you must forgive me for finding it a bit amusing that one of the first posts in this thread talks about subwoofer integration. We currently offer two different active speakers that are explicitly designed for subwoofers. This speaker on the other hand, is meant to cater primarily to those who do not want subwoofers, and want full range sound with only two speakers.

So if you are looking for speakers and plan to integrate with subwoofers, I would strongly recommend that you have a look at the Sigberg Audio SBS.1 or Sigberg Audio MANTA speakers. These are already in sale and available for purchase. To my knowledge there is simply nothing else out there that will give you comparable dynamics or easier subwoofer integration.

Target date and target price for this speaker has not been set. Expect at least 18-24 months of development time until they are ready to ship to the first customers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Need better image from the back panel. Can‘t see it clearly.

 

[sigbergaudio]

One more question if I may. On the preliminary drawings, I see slots for the mid range but no slots for the woofers. How do you generate a cardiod pattern for the woofers without slots? Are you using multiple woofers on the sides and back with electronic processing? If so, I don’t see them on the sketch.

The woofers / woofer enclosure is not cardioid. That would ruin the efficiency / performance below 100hz. The current plan for this speaker is cardioid above ~200-250hz (the woofers cross over to the coax around this frequency).

If you are looking for one of the widest band cardioid systems available, please have a look at the Sigberg Audio MANTA:

MANTA Cardioid Active Speakers (pair)

wideband Cardioid speakers, cardioid bass, dynamic range the most efficient and high sensitivity cardioid hifi speakers. 12" midbass driver, designed for subwoofers

www.sigbergaudio.no

We also have a development thread for the MANTA here on ASR:

Sigberg Audio Manta (12" wideband cardioid active speakers) development thread

It's time for a new build/prototype thread! Thank you to everyone who followed our previous threads (Inkognito subwoofer, 10D subwoofer & SBS.1 Active speakers), all those products are now commercialized and available for purchase world-wide from our website. :D Our next project is the Sigberg...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Salt]

Feel free to elaborate, and we can discuss!

You will pay one or two dB with the port on the back.
Of course this can be compensated by design that includes the backup of the wall close.
But then bass may lack when standing free (but the hypex has DSP included for correction, right?).

 

[sigbergaudio]

You will pay one or two dB with the port on the back.
Of course this can be compensated by design that includes the backup of the wall close.
But then bass may lack when standing free (but the hypex has DSP included for correction, right?).

It's still early days, so this hasn't all been actually done yet, but the idea is a combination of presets + the ability to plug the port will give a few different tuning options that will likely work for placement either close to wall and/or further from the wall depending on your room and taste.

In addition to this, those with competence to utilize it will have access to a 9-band parametric EQ with both notch and shelf filters. Most rooms will have at least one peak in the bass area that would benefit from some EQ.

 

[Salt]

Using 2 woofers it is in question why not opposite left/right but on front?
(It's not BR, but TML contradicting this?)

 

[sigbergaudio]

Using 2 woofers it is in question why not opposite left/right but on front?
(It's not BR, but TML contradicting this?)

Is your question why the drivers aren't side mounted (like on for instance the Kef LS60 or Blade)?

 

[Salt]

Your interpretation is correct (without referring to Kef as I don't have any experience with).

 

[Salt]

Recommendations for design of a SW in this forum overwhelmingly vote for impulse compensation of woofers, so...

 

[sigbergaudio]

Your interpretation is correct (without referring to Kef as I don't have any experience with).

Well, a loudspeaker is always a collection of compromises, and we are also looking at a prototype.

Here are some of the considerations relevant to your question:

• Initially I considered a relatively high crossover (5-600hz), then it would not be ideal with side mounted drivers. Currently the crossover is however much lower, so from that perspective they could have been side mounted.
• I want to make a relatively traditional looking speaker. Active speakers is a bit like electric cars, they often look ..different, scaring away potential buyers. While side mounted drivers can be a good solution, there are few commercial speakers that have this layout, making them unusual looking.
• Building on the second point, if we side mounted the drivers I could also have made a more narrow baffle, but I intentionally wanted a quite beefy speaker, using at least 8" drivers - building on the design language and in-your-face, functional looks of the Sigberg Audio Manta. A narrow speaker / baffle simply wouldn't present the visuals the sound of these speakers deserve.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Recommendations for design of a SW in this forum overwhelmingly vote for impulse compensation of woofers, so...

If you are referring to a dual opposed configuration, I've commented on the validity and effect of that before, since we have subwoofers that are both dual opposed and traditional. In short I don't think that's a big point in a heavy, properly braced speaker like this.

Here is what I wrote then:

Never Put Subwoofers In Corners... Even with DSP and Multi-Sub Setups?

You will be surprised of the audible differences experimenting with the hight when installing a subwoofer - the differences are as big as moving the subs L - R in the room. My own experience in a room with 240 cm distance from floor to roof is that the bass quality will be best placing the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ryanosaur]

I've seen several instances of side mounted Woofers throwing off room correction protocols due to perceived phase issues, even if only using them to simply measure Delay and Trim. More than a few times this came up regarding the SVS Ultra Towers, but have seen references elsewhere.

One could likewise ask why not do a Push-Pull build as this is supposed to give the benefit of dual Drivers while also minimizing distortion.

I agree that the more non-traditional the Speaker looks, the more niche the market becomes. Designs like this may score points with some, but in the end there is still hope of putting these in every living room around the globe!

Thorbjørn, again I like your thought process behind this and am overly eager to realize that when this comes to market I will likely not get to hear it. *sighs

(...Unless, that is, you bring me on as a tester. No salary required. Just keep me in new and innovative Speakers! *crosses fingers)

 

[sigbergaudio]

I've seen several instances of side mounted Woofers throwing off room correction protocols due to perceived phase issues, even if only using them to simply measure Delay and Trim. More than a few times this came up regarding the SVS Ultra Towers, but have seen references elsewhere.

One could likewise ask why not do a Push-Pull build as this is supposed to give the benefit of dual Drivers while also minimizing distortion.

I agree that the more non-traditional the Speaker looks, the more niche the market becomes. Designs like this may score points with some, but in the end there is still hope of putting these in every living room around the globe!

Thorbjørn, again I like your thought process behind this and am overly eager to realize that when this comes to market I will likely not get to hear it. *sighs

(...Unless, that is, you bring me on as a tester. No salary required. Just keep me in new and innovative Speakers! *crosses fingers)

I appreciate your eagerness to test our designs. Heavy speakers like both these and the Mantas are unfortunately pretty expensive to ship for testing (and yes I understand that you are joking (mostly)), but you are very welcome to listen if you should ever come to Norway, or to Keith in London.

 

[sigbergaudio]

To share a bit more about the cabinet construction:

The current prototype has a separate cardioid loaded chamber for the coax with ports on the side similar to the Sigberg Audio MANTA. And an additional feature borrowed from the MANTA are also the slots in the baffle on each side to improve the dispersion characteristics.

The two bass drivers share a common enclosure with a single port. This chamber is relatively large, but quite well braced with braces both between the drivers and below the lower drivers (and above the upper driver the separation between the bass and coax chamber acts as a third brace). In addition to this the bass reflex port is part of the enclosure, going down behind the (again separate) chamber for the amplifier, adding two vertical braces.

The port itself is narrow, but as wide as the cabinet itself, exiting below the amplifier at the back of the cabinet. The port widens considerably at the exit to slow down the air flow and eliminate any port noise.

The current exterior cabinet design is relatively simple, but will likely be somewhat more elaborate (possibly with curved sides) down the road.

 

[ryanosaur]

joking (mostly))

Just my silly way of showing support.

But a man can dream a bit. Can't he? You know, like when I win the Sigberg Sweepstakes?! *laughs uncontrollably

Regardless, rare is the time I am really excited to want to hear a new design. After getting to hear some of the "darlings" people rave about (sometimes incessantly) and being largely unimpressed, it is your approach and philosophy that drives my interest.

All I can say is: Keep it up!

 

[Steve81]

• Initially I considered a relatively high crossover (5-600hz), then it would not be ideal with side mounted drivers. Currently the crossover is however much lower, so from that perspective they could have been side mounted.

Hi!

Out of curiosity, how does the coaxial mid/woofer handle being crossed that low? My main concern is with excursion at high output levels causing issues with its performance as a waveguide, impacting the tweeter’s response.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hi!

Out of curiosity, how does the coaxial mid/woofer handle being crossed that low? My main concern is with excursion at high output levels causing issues with its performance as a waveguide, impacting the tweeter’s response.

Given the current design parameters and with a crossover of 250hz, the expected maximum excursion of the midrange driver is ~1.5mm. So I do not consider this a big concern.

I also have extensive experience with this coax in the SBS.1 where it's taking part in a 2.5-way design (being crossed over at 90hz), and even that works very well, pushing out high SPLs with low distortion and no audible artifacts. This 3-way design is a lot more forgiving, despite the relatively low crossover (which is also subject to change).

The Manta also uses this coax (with an admittedly much higher crossover at 600hz), and that speaker is rated at 122dB@1m per speaker (weighted pink noise).

 

[Steve81]

Given the current design parameters and with a crossover of 250hz, the expected maximum excursion of the midrange driver is ~1.5mm. So I do not consider this a big concern.

I also have extensive experience with this coax in the SBS.1 where it's taking part in a 2.5-way design (being crossed over at 90hz), and even that works very well, pushing out high SPLs with low distortion and no audible artifacts. This 3-way design is a lot more forgiving, despite the relatively low crossover (which is also subject to change).

The Manta also uses this coax (with an admittedly much higher crossover at 600hz), and that speaker is rated at 122dB@1m per speaker (weighted pink noise).

I was mostly thinking that a 4-way design with a dedicated, cardioid mid/woofer might be preferable / more in line with Manta’s + subs.