Show us your Cars

[Blumlein 88]

Generalised like is this it is not correct, according to several studies it depends on the usage, source of electricity and observed system limits. For many users its rather a comfortable way of green washing their lower (often partially subsidised) costs and new toy syndrome like many other things which are in fashion today.

Give an example.

 

[thewas]

Give an example.

For example this curve

which shows the total CO2 emission of different vehicle types over their usage.

It should be also said that CO2 emissions don't include the whole environmental and social footprint with also important aspects like the consumption of limited resources and the nowadays in times of EURO 6-7 dominating particle emission from brakes (usually better in EV due to recuperation) and tires (usually worse in EV due to higher vehicle mass).

With this I don't imply of course that EVs are generally worse but as everything in this universe the answer is not simple black or white but a compromise and depends on the individual usage and priorities set.

 

[Willem]

What I learn here is that EVs on solar and wind electricity are cleanest, by a pretty wide margin (only green hydrogen powered cars are similar). After the initial manufacturing, EVs add almost nothing during their use period. The challenge is twofold, therefore: reduce emissions from manufacturing, and reduce non sustainable electricity production as much as possible. The current break even point compared to most alternatives would be around 25k km. Of course, the car free alternative is even better.

 

[madrac]

Generalised like is this it is not correct, according to several studies it depends on the usage, source of electricity and observed system limits. For many users its rather a comfortable way of green washing their lower (often partially subsidised) costs and new toy syndrome like many other things which are in fashion today.

This is accurate.

Similarly, several studies say production of an EV makes 50-70% more greenhouse gas emissions than an ICE, but over the lifetime EV will be cleaner by how much depends on factors in quoted post. The break even point was between 1.5 and 2 years. However, I didn’t see any mention of environmental impact of disposal of the old batteries.

 

[Willem]

Batteries can be re-used as home batteries, or be recycled.

 

[Doodski]

Batteries can be re-used as home batteries, or be recycled.

I am with reservation suspect of this new type of batteries recycling idea. I have professionally dealt with batteries of different types both as a electronic technician and a battery shop manager from lead acid up to and including the lithium types and yes they do have vastly improved charging cycle capabilities and such with the new types of batteries but without onboard electronics for charging cycles and regulation they are simply basic batteries with a charge cycle limitation that is improved over the old types of batteries. Am I missing something about the new technology batteries? The premise of taking somewhat spent vehicular type rechargeable batteries and using them for residential use seems to be taking something that has at best maybe 20% of the charge cycles remaining in it and using it in the home for a duty that is critical. For example if there is a HVAC issue it could cause temperature changes that could kill some people or even freeze the water pipes etc. I consider the mission of all battery applications to be pretty critical because the first ~15% of the charge/discharge voltage is where the power delivery is at and less than that and things simply don't function. The electronics circuitry has a operating range for voltage and below or above a certain specification and things can cease operating properly if the batteries are below or above ratings.

 

[Blumlein 88]

For example this curve

View attachment 355180
which shows the total CO2 emission of different vehicle types over their usage.

It should be also said that CO2 emissions don't include the whole environmental and social footprint with also important aspects like the consumption of limited resources and the nowadays in times of EURO 6-7 dominating particle emission from brakes (usually better in EV due to recuperation) and tires (usually worse in EV due to higher vehicle mass).

With this I don't imply of course that EVs are generally worse but as everything in this universe the answer is not simple black or white but a compromise and depends on the individual usage and priorities set.

Overall life of the product this doesn't indicate an issue. Fuel cells might be better, but so far no one can make one that is affordable enough to market. And how was the whole infrastructure that would be required factored into this. The only other which is better looks to be bio-methane. It can be, but I'd like to know details of that. Most bio-methane at any scale is pretty inefficient. Not as bad as alcohol, but in that direction. I've managed some bio-methane production so know something of how that works. I guessing elektro 3 was from solar or wind? Does that mean the other was excluding that?

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is accurate.

Similarly, several studies say production of an EV makes 50-70% more greenhouse gas emissions than an ICE, but over the lifetime EV will be cleaner by how much depends on factors in quoted post. The break even point was between 1.5 and 2 years. However, I didn’t see any mention of environmental impact of disposal of the old batteries.

I think battery recycling will be pretty efficient. Lead is a bad substance, and I think recycling of lead acid batteries is 99%. Lithium is tougher. One reason there is such interest in some other type batteries is the ability to recycle the material effectively.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I am with reservation suspect of this new type of batteries recycling idea. I have professionally dealt with batteries of different types both as a electronic technician and a battery shop manager from lead acid up to and including the lithium types and yes they do have vastly improved charging cycle capabilities and such with the new types of batteries but without onboard electronics for charging cycles and regulation they are simply basic batteries with a charge cycle limitation that is improved over the old types of batteries. Am I missing something about the new technology batteries? The premise of taking somewhat spent vehicular type rechargeable batteries and using them for residential use seems to be taking something that has at best maybe 20% of the charge cycles remaining in it and using it in the home for a duty that is critical. For example if there is a HVAC issue it could cause temperature changes that could kill some people or even freeze the water pipes etc. I consider the mission of all battery applications to be pretty critical because the first ~15% of the charge/discharge voltage is where the power delivery is at and less than that and things simply don't function. The electronics circuitry has a operating range for voltage and below or above a certain specification and things can cease operating properly if the batteries are below or above ratings.

I think the recycling of the batteries will be made to work pretty well. I agree about using spent batteries. I think where that might be effective is large centralized locations for local grid use for load leveling. There is at least one fairly large installation in California which is apparently performing well. It actually charges the batteries off of solar and sells it when the juice is most needed.

California project is second in US to employ used EV batteries to sell power to the grid: B2U

B2U Storage Solutions said Tuesday it has begun operations at its second grid-connected hybrid storage facility, using hundreds of repurposed EV batteries from Honda for a 3 MW/12 MWh facility.

www.utilitydive.com

 

[Doodski]

I think the recycling of the batteries will be made to work pretty well. I agree about using spent batteries. I think where that might be effective is large centralized locations for local grid use for load leveling. There is at least one fairly large installation in California which is apparently performing well. It actually charges the batteries off of solar and sells it when the juice is most needed.

California project is second in US to employ used EV batteries to sell power to the grid: B2U

B2U Storage Solutions said Tuesday it has begun operations at its second grid-connected hybrid storage facility, using hundreds of repurposed EV batteries from Honda for a 3 MW/12 MWh facility.

www.utilitydive.com

The Province of Alberta where I live has more solar and wind generation than anywhere in Canada. In a cold snap this winter the power management corporation put out a emergency cel tel and TV alert because we where mere minutes from a total loss of electrical power province wide. If not for the USA and Saskatchewan selling us some energy we woulda been screwed. Thanks guys... The temps where at about -37C plus wind chill and at that range of temp the water pipes will freeze in short order and that will be a major disaster of quasi biblical proportion. What is required is massive battery storage. There is some battery storage but it might provide seconds of backup at this time. The battery backup stuff really needs to get with the program and as a result of the lack of it's availability a several+ month government hold was put on all solar and wind energy generation because it was taking us nowhere. Because we have the highest rates of fees for electricity in Canada and it is unregulated we are a very attractive environment for solar and wind energy providers and they are lined up with projects but at this time at colder than -30C the wind ceases generating because the temps are so low the towers will fracture and break and the solar does not work in that stuff either so we have natural gas generation for the mainline. Why is it taking so long for battery backup?

 

[AudioJester]

Around me in suburban Sydney Australia, household solar has really taken off. To the point where our energy suppliers (predominantly coal) are turning down outputs during the day.

A lot of us have not paid power bills for years - AU$5-8k per year. Then a single EV has no running coss, free solar charging, thats another AU$5-10k per year. Last year the government gave you $4k rebate for buying an EV. Plus multiple solar rebates over the years. Now most households have more than 1 car, an EV is the perfect city solution. Would not drive an EV in regional Aust.

Battery recycling, faster charging - there is a 3 row van just released in China that can go 10%-80% in 10mins adding over 500km range! Hot swap battery components instead of charging, lots of rapid development for EV. PHEV have a big future in rural Australia.

 

[Doodski]

A lot of us have not paid power bills for years - AU$5-8k per year. Then a single EV has no running coss, free solar charging, thats another AU$5-10k per year. Last year the government gave you $4k rebate for buying an EV. Plus multiple solar rebates over the years. Now most households have more than 1 car, an EV is the perfect city solution.

This is what we want to see all over. Textbook application of the new technology in an effective and proper manner with wide acceptance. Now in the future to get rid of rebates and such because the roads won't repair themselves.

 

[thewas]

Similarly, several studies say production of an EV makes 50-70% more greenhouse gas emissions than an ICE, but over the lifetime EV will be cleaner by how much depends on factors in quoted post. The break even point was between 1.5 and 2 years. However, I didn’t see any mention of environmental impact of disposal of the old batteries.

Also these studies don't consider the lifetime of the product, if one variant lasts much longer than another. For example a 30 year old car with Euro 2 catalyst can have total better footprint than buying 5 new cars in that time span

After the initial manufacturing

Which is the big issue, so just hypothetically talking about your old Peugeot with your low mileage use it could be the cleaner option to changing it to a new EV.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Also these studies don't consider the lifetime of the product, if one variant lasts much longer than another. For example a 30 year old car with Euro 2 catalyst can have total better footprint than buying 5 new cars in that time span

Which is the big issue, so just hypothetically talking about your old Peugeot with your low mileage use it could be the cleaner option to changing it to a new EV.

Aren't you making the assumption the EV won't last as long? I don't see a reason to believe that. Besides he is giving his old car to his daughter and contemplating getting another for himself. As he is buying a used EV the manufacturing part has already occurred. So his contribution from his use would be far lower as the on going emissions from an EV are clearly lower. I don't think anyone can show the emissions from an EV without needing to consider those from manufacture are worse than any other form of automobile available.

 

[thewas]

Aren't you making the assumption the EV won't last as long? I don't see a reason to believe that.

I do, I strongly doubt any EV battery (which failure is like a total damage due to its very high percentage of cost and often structural integration with no official manufacturer approved way to change them) will last 30 years like many current IC cars still driving around on their first engine (which can even be replaced for the fraction of the cost).

As he is buying a used EV the manufacturing part has already occurred.

In his case as he needs an additional car that may hold, but generally replacing something used with something used isn't a solution as also the "new used" needs to be manufactured, so changing less cars is the most ecological way.

 

[EJ3]

What I learn here is that EVs on solar and wind electricity are cleanest, by a pretty wide margin (only green hydrogen powered cars are similar). After the initial manufacturing, EVs add almost nothing during their use period. The challenge is twofold, therefore: reduce emissions from manufacturing, and reduce non sustainable electricity production as much as possible. The current break even point compared to most alternatives would be around 25k km. Of course, the car free alternative is even better.

And what about the end of life cycle? (DISPOSAL?)

I have a few cars that meet some fairly modern emission standards that are more than 50 years old, yet in better shape than many 3 year old cars.

 

[wunderkind]

Well I came here to see some possibly interesting cars but alas, this thread has now devolved into Teslas and EV posturing. Would be nice to stay on topic of posting photos.

 

[BDWoody]

Well I came here to see some possibly interesting cars but alas, this thread has now devolved into Teslas and EV posturing. Would be nice to stay on topic of posting photos.

I've got to second that motion.

Let's please leave that subject for somewhere else.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have had this 14 months now, its throttle response, wide power band, steering, handling and quietness make it by far the best car I own.
If it has a fault it has far more pointless gadgets than I need, but I just ignore them

 

[Doodski]

I have had this 14 months now, its throttle response, wide power band, steering, handling and quietness make it by far the best car I own.
If it has a fault it has far more pointless gadgets than I need, but I just ignore them
View attachment 355450

A very sweet ride for sure. I love the interior in those. I also love the Panamera models too. Very nice car for North America with the long distances and oftentimes far distance between petrol stations in Canada.

EDIT: What top speed have you had her up to?