Shenzhenaudio Topping EX5 Review (DAC and Headphone Amplifier)

[JohnYang1997]

He did mention in the video and showed a response from the company that 1.3W would be at higher THD. But according to the AP measurement, that would be beyond clipping. Amir got 1W at the point of clipping. What am I missing?

There's nothing wrong about what you just said. And like I said I didn't watch the video. You are definitely not missing anything.

 

[Lupin]

So he completely missed input sensitivity which is clearly specified to be 2.7V at high gain. smh

That's why I said one should take his conclusions with a grain of salt.
He really seems to go out of his way to find something negative to say about Topping. Perhaps he is best buds with the people over at SBAF

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I watched the video, and he recommends the EX5.

He says it’s well equipped for the price, and notes that you can’t buy either a DAC/Amp or stack of two separates for the same price unless you give up a load of features. He notes both DAC and amp are neutral.

Finally, he notes that, despite his questions about power, that won’t affect most people, and is only question for those who need tons of power.

 

[SeriousSam70]

There's nothing wrong about what you just said. And like I said I didn't watch the video. You are definitely not missing anything.

Well, I think the question @ Chromatischism was asking is: in the end, what is the maximum usable power (in a real situation, not on paper): 1 W or 1.3 W ?
As a Topping EX5 owner, I'm also curious about the correct maximum power, not that I have headphones that are very difficult to drive at the moment, but for the future.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Well, I think the question @ Chromatischism was asking is: in the end, what is the maximum usable power (in a real situation, not on paper): 1 W or 1.3 W ?
As a Topping EX5 owner, I'm also curious about the correct maximum power, not that I have headphones that are very difficult to drive at the moment, but for the future.

What's the difference? Honestly.
1.3W it is. Or why would I spec it like that?

 

[SeriousSam70]

What's the difference? Honestly.
1.3W it is. Or why would I speced it like that?

Ok. Thank you!

 

[Chromatischism]

There's nothing wrong about what you just said. And like I said I didn't watch the video. You are definitely not missing anything.

Ok, I understand the difference - Amir has a higher standard. But if 1.3w is well after the "knee" spikes up, would a user really be getting into that range? Granted, it's still nearly 100 dB down, but does the user notice anything if pushing into that range?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Ok, I understand the difference - Amir has a higher standard. But if 1.3w is well after the "knee" spikes up, would a user really be getting into that range? Granted, it's still nearly 100 dB down, but does the user notice anything if pushing into that range?

Would people really use 1.3W? That's the same question....
It's more than enough. If one doesn't think it's enough, he/she can get something else with more power. Simple.

 

[Chromatischism]

It's certainly more than enough, no question.

But is it common to advertise power and THD this way?

 

[SeriousSam70]

It's certainly more than enough, no question.

But is it common to advertise power and THD this way?

Yes, I think this is somewhat of a common practice. For example, some audio companies advertise power even at 10% THD for stereo amplifiers, because in the eyes of the average consumer more power (even if "dirtier") is better than less power (even if "cleaner"). However, high-caliber Hi-Fi audio companies that truly respect their customers usually do not resort to these cheap tricks. (But it's true that the price of their products is usually very high).
Anyway, I'm sure you already know all this. What you really want is to catch JohnYang1997 and snatch a confession from him. Guess what, this isn't going to happen too soon because John is a proud person who doesn't respond well to criticism. Usually his attitude is this: if you don't like my / our product, buy something else. And maybe he's right, after all: the market is full of good DAC and HP Amp. combo or separate alternatives at competitive prices (from SMSL, Schiit Audio etc). And then there are more expensive alternatives but with much more advanced functionalities, such as RME ADI-2 FS, Matrix Mini-i PRO 3 etc.

 

[Benedium]

I don't know much but I guess if I put myself in John's shoes... I would say he would have thought the clever people here would understand that there are limits for every budget.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

I don't know much but I guess if I put myself in John's shoes... I would say he would have thought the clever people here would understand that there are limits for every budget.

I both totally agree with what you’ve said, and must note that it doesn’t answer the specific question.

Some DAC/amps may be statistically ‘better’ on paper, but not actually sound better to most (all?) human ears.

32 bit is ‘better’ than 24 bit, but I think we’d both agree you can’t hear the difference.

I fully understand that every product is built to a cost, and I don’t think you need to be all that clever to figure that one out. Whilst some may always crave bigger numbers (and I have no criticism of that), I’m only interested in paying for those numbers up to the point I can hear the difference, and no further.

From then on, my next target is how cheaply that can be done. My question to John relates to that position.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I both totally agree with what you’ve said, and must note that it doesn’t answer the specific question.

Some DAC/amps may be statistically ‘better’ on paper, but not actually sound better to most (all?) human ears.

32 bit is ‘better’ than 24 bit, but I think we’d both agree you can’t hear the difference.

I fully understand that every product is built to a cost, and I don’t think you need to be all that clever to figure that one out. Whilst some may always crave bigger numbers (and I have no criticism of that), I’m only interested in paying for those numbers up to the point I can hear the difference, and no further.

From then on, my next target is how cheaply that can be done. My question to John relates to that position.

That's exactly why D10 Balanced exists right?

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

That's exactly why D10 Balanced exists right?

I was thinking that.

But the stack (D10 + L50) costs $229 + $139 = $368, so $19 more than this, and you can add $10 (or more…much, much more) for the cables.

I’m only asking for one reason. I’ve been waiting for the L50 so I could decide, D10 balanced + L50 or EX5.

Well, I'm currently about to pull the trigger on the EX5, but want to give others the opportunity to change my mind if I’ve missed anything.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I was thinking that.

But the stack (D10 + L50) costs $229 + $139 = $368, so $19 more than this, and you can add $10 (or more…much, much more) for the cables.

I’m only asking for one reason. I’ve been waiting for the L50 so I could decide, D10 balanced + L50 or EX5.

Well, I'm currently about to pull the trigger on the EX5, but want to give others the opportunity to change my mind if I’ve missed anything.

If you ask me, I wouldn't recommend AIO over separates. Because it's so much better if you separate the stuff with dedicated supply and chassis.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

If you ask me, I wouldn't recommend AIO over separates. Because it's so much better if you separate the stuff with dedicated supply and chassis.

Thanks for replying.

I can imagine it’s less of a technological challenge for you than designing an AIO. But us there any genuine, real-world difference which would bother headphone listeners, other than those with tough to drive headphones or IEMs?

Many thanks again for your excellent answers. We don’t get this from many customers, it’s very much appreciated.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Thanks for replying.

I can imagine it’s less of a technological challenge for you than designing an AIO. But us there any genuine, real-world difference which would bother headphone listeners, other than those with tough to drive headphones or IEMs?

Many thanks again for your excellent answers. We don’t get this from many customers, it’s very much appreciated.

You can see it in measurements. L50 has much better 50mV performance just from Amir's review. In our testing, L50 has 104dB SNR at 50mV with the aid of better suiting measuring equipment.
And the same time much more power, from low impedance to high impedance load.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

@JohnYang1997 is on good form answering my questions today. John, can you (or anyone else? @amirm ?) set my mind at rest over this.

Amir has said the main advantage of balanced connections between DAC & amp is to largely eliminate ground loops.

As this unit contains both DAC & amp, with a shared power supply, does that in itself do the same thing, or would a separate DAC/amp stack with a balanced connection between them be better at eliminated ground loops.

I’m still learning.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

You can see it in measurements. L50 has much better 50mV performance just from Amir's review. In our testing, L50 has 104dB SNR at 50mV with the aid of better suiting measuring equipment.
And the same time much more power, from low impedance to high impedance load.

As I won’t be using this with sensitive IEMs, I’m not sure the 50mV figure is an issue, but I stand to be corrected.

On power Amir says of the EX5:

“The EX5 produced exceptionally good performance with both my Drop Ether CX and Sennheiser HD650. There was good amount of volume available in low gain and in high gain, it was skull rattling powerful for the second or so I cranked the volume up. Detail, bass performance, absence of distortion -- there were all there. If the sound sucks, it is your content.”

That sounds like enough for me!

 

[JohnYang1997]

@JohnYang1997 is on good form answering my questions today. John, can you (or anyone else? @amirm ?) set my mind at rest over this.

Amir has said the main advantage of balanced connections between DAC & amp is to largely eliminate ground loops.

As this unit contains both DAC & amp, with a shared power supply, does that in itself do the same thing, or would a separate DAC/amp stack with a balanced connection between them be better at eliminated ground loops.

I’m still learning.

When you have all the components and power supply smash together in a small box there will be interference.

And the fact that introducing another balanced pot in the device would be insanely difficult to implement a good operating logic. That's why EX5 doesn't have an actual pot.

Also due to some fundamental in the designs it's difficult to make good headphone output that doesn't distortion under load and a really good XLR line output. There are already tricks being done to ensure the performance of the headphone output that's why you see the phone out is actually better than the rare out.

If you separate the dac and the amp, you can have the flexibility and it's easy to understand the operation since it's now two devices instead of one device that has many operation modes which can be very confusing. The DAC and the amp now doesn't have the same power supply and physically far apart so very unlikely to have interference.

To me the stack is just so much better. But there are always people just want one unit and they want internal AC power supply, oh and make it as small as possible please. So we have to have such designs. If you don't have a strong preference, always go for the stack.