Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Krunok]

Actually, I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that not all DACs sound the same. Is jitter a factor? At some level, yes. Do we have all the measurement possibilities that contribute to how a device sounds? I don't think so.

Sure, you've got an opinion. As Clint Eastwood once said: "opinion is like an asshole, everybody has it". The question here is where did you get the expertise to form your opinon?

 

[Krunok]

Wait, so are you saying that if the cable is good enough, the "veil" would be lifted from all your music?

I'm an EE with some experience, but I have yet to see a cable lifting a "veil", either in digital transmission or in analog.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Even if you hit on someone really, really lucky (or superman)... as long as they weren't the first... you'll have a whole closet of gear to replace everything with for the next sucker. There should be a carnival booth for this! I'm tempted to set up a room for that at the next CES... wonder if I couldn't get a few dozen "floor samples" from the show that way?

You're onto something here, @digicidal. Many of the rooms at CES are carnival booths.

 

[Julf]

Actually, I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that not all DACs sound the same.

Indeed. Some are poorly executed. Some are "voiced" on purpose.

Is jitter a factor? At some level, yes.

What makes you believe that?

Do we have all the measurement possibilities that contribute to how a device sounds? I don't think so.

We have most of them - but more importantly, we have very reliable ways to determine if some factor makes an audible difference or not.

 

[ahofer]

Regarding audibility of jitter, it has to be pretty bad. Far worse than the measurements we typically see:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/08/demo-musings-lets-listen-to-some-jitter.html

 

[Krunok]

Regarding audibility of jitter, it has to be pretty bad. Far worse than the measurements we typically see:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/08/demo-musings-lets-listen-to-some-jitter.html

That is a simulation without taking into account reclocking on the receiving end, which most of modern DACs do.

 

[Vapor9]

Sure, you've got an opinion. As Clint Eastwood once said: "opinion is like an asshole, everybody has it". The question here is where did you get the expertise to form your opinon?

The same place you got your expertise on all the known and unknown ways to measure what we hear. It almost sounds as if you've been to the future and discovered there are no remaining ways to measure what we hear.

 

[Julf]

The same place you got your expertise on all the known and unknown ways to measure what we hear.

Probably not. Krunok mentioned he was an EE, so he went to university to specifically study this stuff, and that is one of the ways he got his experience. I don't think you did the same.

 

[Krunok]

The same place you got your expertise on all the known and unknown ways to measure what we hear. It almost sounds as if you've been to the future and discovered there are no remaining ways to measure what we hear.

Oh, so you're an EE as well? I rarely ran into a colleague who is a firm believer in audio religion as you are.

 

[ahofer]

That is a simulation without taking into account reclocking on the receiving end, which most of modern DACs do.

Well, yeah, although he addresses that likelihood at the beginning.

The point is that it takes a boatload of jitter to be audible, the kind of boatload that is almost never delivered with current reasonably-priced equipment, and no stupid tweaks or add-ins. We agree on that?

 

[Krunok]

Well, yeah, although he addresses that likelihood at the beginning.

The point is that it takes a boatload of jitter to be audible, the kind of boatload that is almost never delivered with current reasonably-priced equipment, and no stupid tweaks or add-ins. We agree on that?

Yep, we do. Even without reclocking jitter practically never causes audible artifacts with modern chips.

 

[ashleydoormat]

So you guys don't think the conductance and quality of the materials will make cables sound different? Any concrete proof that cables with different materials conduct signals the same way?

 

[Vapor9]

Oh, so you're an EE as well? I rarely ran into a colleague who is a firm believer in audio religion as you are.

Yes, you're much like a scientist from the dark ages. Because I cannot measure something in my lab is proof that it cannot exist.

 

[garbulky]

I think you've missed the point of this analogy. You either believe blind test or not. If you do, then you should discard your "regular use" sighted impressions.

Why would I do that? The blind test didn't change my experience with the gear even after it. Another person's blind test has little to do with how I hear. They could tell me all day long that an Oppo sounds the same as everything else because of a null result. But that doesn't change that you couldn't pay me to take an Oppo 105 over my DC-1. Why would I? I don't like the sound! Once a null result starts mirroring how I experience my gear, maybe then I'll take null results as being proof of no difference.

A DBT level matched test I do believe in - but for its intended application - which is POSITIVE results in a properly conducted test.
A positive shows that you can repeatedly reproduce this result and show a difference.

But people equate any half hearted blind test for being the same thing as a properly conducted test. And they take a null result as being proof of no difference. Which a null result is NOT proof of no difference. It's proof that the listener scored no better than random chance in that specific test condition .
Specific test condition is what makes things different:
It is level matched MUCH harder to differentiate
blind (makes it harder)
rapid switching (even harder).
In most of these tests The variable isn't even defined and the subject not even trained and proved to hear the variable tested for ?!?

Level matched DBT's are DIFFICULT and ideally require training and a provably recognizable variable.

A trained recognizable variable vs a vague "see if there's a difference whatever that may be" will produce a different level of accuracy than the other.

People see level matching as being "the difference should stick out." But instead a thousand different things sounds the same to each other and the actual difference is minor and cannot stick out because you don't know what you are looking for. The (person untrained for the difference) doesn't automatically zero in on the difference. It's trying to listen to all those different things that do sound the same.

I'm not surprised that the brain can't pick out a difference in that kind of testing condition.

All of that is a far cry from how I use my gear. I plug it in. I enjoy. And I know what I like and what it sounds like. If my real world use agreed with null results in a DBT then I would likely be saying completely the opposite because then my real world listening would mirror the results of a DBT. But currently they don't. I've heard several dacs sound different despite what the measurements and "dubiously conducted" DBT's suggest. So what use is that for me? Am I to somehow make myself hear things differently to match what the DBT's tell me I should be hearing?

 

[Krunok]

Yes, you're much like a scientist from the dark ages. Because I cannot measure something in my lab is proof that it cannot exist.

Well, here is how I see it: 50 years ago scientists were busy sending folks to the Moon. Now they are busy explaining folks like you that Earth is not flat, that children should be vaccined and that jitter is not audible. And that really makes me worried about the future of the mankind..

 

[garbulky]

So you guys don't think the conductance and quality of the materials will make cables sound different? Any concrete proof that cables with different materials conduct signals the same way?

@amirm actually did a test between DIGITAL cables that showed a measurable difference in the output of the DAC. It is far below what somebody could hear. But it's there in the signal.

 

[Krunok]

Why would I do that? The blind test didn't change my experience with the gear even after it.

Of course it didn't. Unfortuntately science don't have a better way to prove it to you, so you go on and enjoy your beliefs. Preferably on another forum.

 

[Julf]

So you guys don't think the conductance and quality of the materials will make cables sound different?

No.

Any concrete proof that cables with different materials conduct signals the same way?

At least 200 years of metallurgy and physics.

 

[Julf]

Yes, you're much like a scientist from the dark ages. Because I cannot measure something in my lab is proof that it cannot exist.

You keep beating up that poor straw man.

 

[Julf]

@amirm actually did a test between DIGITAL cables that showed a measurable difference in the output of the DAC. It is far below what somebody could hear. But it's there in the signal.

That was not because of materials, but construction / topology. Both cables were standard electrical wiring copper.