Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Julf]

How do you deal with people who claim a 192khz oversampling DAC sounds better or is preferred than a 96khz or even a 48khz max DAC for any content? (Note: not a strawman, since many even here think Dirac systems operating at 48khz sampling is a problem)

Ask them to do a double blind test.

 

[BDWoody]

I realize that this is regularly scheduled Piñata to beat up on but here is a tangential question for the measurement crowd that perhaps has a similar answer:

How do you deal with people who claim a 192khz oversampling DAC sounds better or is preferred than a 96khz or even a 48khz max DAC for any content? (Note: not a strawman, since many even here think Dirac systems operating at 48khz sampling is a problem)

I would say they should buy what they like, but they may want to do some controlled testing before they got a second mortgage.

If they tried to convince me, my reaction would depend on their level of cultist evangelism and condescension in their presentation/regurgitation of snake oil filled marketing propaganda.

 

[donpablo]

This thread may save me a lot of money since I have thought that when I buy more expensive (or just with other/newer chip) DAC to my Aune S6 I could achieve bigger soundstage/imaging/whatever.

 

[Krunok]

Well here we are assuming that people are buying based on horsepower which is clearly measurable. But in this case people buy gear because they are after a certain sound or experience. And the same with cars. A Tesla model S would outperform a Lamborghini in a 0-60. But put the two next to me, I would probably choose the Lamborghini to race around the track. But I may choose the Model S to commute to work.

I think you've missed the point of this analogy. You either believe blind test or not. If you do, then you should discard your "regular use" sighted impressions.

 

[Vapor9]

How do I deal? I find I tend to agree with myself! Go listen to an Oppo 105, and a Emotiva DC-1 and come back and tell me they don't sound different. I also agree that the measurements show that there probably shouldn't be a difference.

Thank you. So many on this site believe that the limited set of available measurements tell the whole story.

 

[Julf]

Thank you. So many on this site believe that the limited set of available measurements tell the whole story.

Many of us believe in verified evidence, not random perceptions, claims or anecdotes.

 

[Krunok]

Thank you. So many on this site believe that the limited set of available measurements tell the whole story.

Which really comes as a surprise on a scientifically oriented forum, does it?

 

[Vapor9]

Many of us believe in verified evidence, not random perceptions, claims or anecdotes.

I believe all the evidence is not in yet. Remember the time before jitter was a valid measurement?

 

[Julf]

I believe all the evidence is not in yet. Remember the time before jitter was a valid measurement?

Jitter has always been a valid measurement, from the beginnings of digital audio more than 50 years ago. As to evidence being in or not, it is not about "can we measure everything?", it is "can we verify everything?", and the answer is yes. Either you can tell a difference in a double-blind test, or you can't.

 

[Krunok]

I believe all the evidence is not in yet. Remember the time before jitter was a valid measurement?

C'mon M8, jitter is still a valid measurement. How to interpret it's impact on D/A conversion is another thing. Pls be serious or find yourself another forum..

 

[Vapor9]

C'mon M8, jitter is still a valid measurement. How to interpret it's impact on D/A conversion is another thing. Pls be serious or find yourself another forum..

I misspoke. Remember the time when certain people could not believe that we could hear jitter?

 

[Krunok]

I misspoke. Remember the time when certain people could not believe that we could hear jitter?

I'm old enough to remember the folks that believed Earth is flat, then they were gone for some time, and here they are again.

 

[ashleydoormat]

I'm still pretty new to audio in general and I'm always open to suggestions. So I tried different cables (from generic to $500+ audiophile ones, from pcocc to silver pcocc) and op amps (discrete and normal). I think I can hear some different in cables made using different materials and it's probably due to conductance and quality of the materials. I think there's also difference in op amps in different applications but then I came to understand it's because certain op amps aren't good for certain circuits so they aren't working at their best (probably oscillating). I tried a few good budget dacs and couldn't really tell the difference at all lol. I think audiophiles want options so they attach their narratives to different options to make op amp rolling, dac rolling, cable rolling more interesting. I just hope that I'll remain as open minded to the idea that I may or may not hear any difference at all when I become an old ass audiophile.

 

[Julf]

I misspoke. Remember the time when certain people could not believe that we could hear jitter?

So you believe we hear jitter? Any amount of it?

 

[Krunok]

I misspoke. Remember the time when certain people could not believe that we could hear jitter?

Btw, you can't hear jitter with modern DACs. They reclock on the receiving end so you either get the packets as intended or the stream gets broken. Only a person that doesn't understand how that works can claim he can hear the jitter.

 

[Julf]

I think I can hear some different in cables made using different materials and it's probably due to conductance and quality of the materials..

Key word here is indeed "think". There are relatively easy ways to find out for sure.

 

[Krunok]

I think I can hear some different in cables made using different materials and it's probably due to conductance and quality of the materials.

I also think Earth is flat when looking at the sea surface from my balcony. It's probably due to the fact my balcony is not high enough to see the curvature.

 

[Vapor9]

So you believe we hear jitter? Any amount of it?

Actually, I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that not all DACs sound the same. Is jitter a factor? At some level, yes. Do we have all the measurement possibilities that contribute to how a device sounds? I don't think so.

 

[Spocko]

Well, I never bet and certainly wouldn't want a gun to my head! That said, I HAVE participated in listening tests and heard definite differences between bit-perfect playback devices; e.g.:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/05/blind-test-results-part-4-do-digital.html

These are not enormous differences (like the difference between SD and 4k TV, or between Coke and Pepsi) - but more subtle (like the difference between implementations of 4k or bottled vs. canned Coke). Some people wouldn't notice them (or perhaps not right away), but they DO exist.

And ultimately, would you say the differences were more personal preference or truly qualitative in that one was "better" than the other due to less resonances or distortion?

 

[Spocko]

I also think Earth is flat when looking at the sea surface from my balcony. It's probably due to the fact my balcony is not high enough to see the curvature.

Wait, so are you saying that if the cable is good enough, the "veil" would be lifted from all your music?