Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Mr. Haelscheir]

I just rely on what I hear.

I will share my recent anecdote of biting the bullet and visiting two shops to "listen" to a few amps and DACs before deciding on buying a Holo Audio Bliss KTE; see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/rec...ely-curious-objectivist.972411/#post-18078699 (post #9) for more details. There was a point while comparing my FiiO K9 Pro ESS with an RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE for which I had already found general orchestral or string detail and whatnot to be identical that I had thought the RME was finally presenting more "definition" to some bass or drum skin texture around 40 seconds into the opening of Boulez' Mahler Symphony No. 5 recording, the same somehow sounding duller through the FiiO, whereby after realizing I finally had access to a cable with which I could use a multimeter to do a more precise volume match, that difference eventually disappeared and at one point even reversed with the FiiO shortly sounding like the RME did when I thought it was more detailed and the RME sounding like the FiiO did when I thought it was less detailed. I have likewise experienced when A/Bing my newly acquired HE1000se with my Arya Stealth cases of hearing increased clarity or bigness when switching from one to the other, only to hear the same "change" upon switching back. Human hearing can be quite fickle.

@all Should we have a sticky requiring newcomers to read through prerequisite material before posting in this thread?

 

[DonR]

I will share my recent anecdote of biting the bullet and visiting two shops to "listen" to a few amps and DACs before deciding on buying a Holo Audio Bliss KTE; see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/rec...ely-curious-objectivist.972411/#post-18078699 (post #9) for more details. There was a point while comparing my FiiO K9 Pro ESS with an RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE for which I had already found general orchestral or string detail and whatnot to be identical that I had thought the RME was finally presenting more "definition" to some bass or drum skin texture around 40 seconds into the opening of Boulez' Mahler Symphony No. 5 recording, the same somehow sounding duller through the FiiO, whereby after realizing I finally had access to a cable with which I could use a multimeter to do a more precise volume match, that difference eventually disappeared and at one point even reversed with the FiiO shortly sounding like the RME did when I thought it was more detailed and the RME sounding like the FiiO did when I thought it was less detailed. I have likewise experienced when A/Bing my newly acquired HE1000se with my Arya Stealth cases of hearing increased clarity or bigness when switching from one to the other, only to hear the same "change" upon switching back. Human hearing can be quite fickle.

Echoic (auditory) memory is at most 4 seconds long. Humans often overestimate their abilities.

 

[antcollinet]

Does everybody here listen to test signals all day? I listen to the music. Is it possible that a piece of equipment tests extremely high in all aspects but doesn't sound good?

No. If they measure high in all aspects, then what comes out is audibly identical to what was encoded in the digital file.

 

[oleg87]

Is it possible that a piece of equipment tests extremely high in all aspects but doesn't sound good?

No. That's the whole point - music, before it makes a transducer wiggle, is just an electrical signal. If a DAC has no defects in its ability to reproduce a range of test signals that represent an adequate analog to music and real-world usage, this idea is completely nonsensical.

It could be broken of course, but I assume that's not what we're talking about.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I will share my recent anecdote of biting the bullet and visiting two shops to "listen" to a few amps and DACs before deciding on buying a Holo Audio Bliss KTE; see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/rec...ely-curious-objectivist.972411/#post-18078699 (post #9) for more details. There was a point while comparing my FiiO K9 Pro ESS with an RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE for which I had already found general orchestral or string detail and whatnot to be identical that I had thought the RME was finally presenting more "definition" to some bass or drum skin texture around 40 seconds into the opening of Boulez' Mahler Symphony No. 5 recording, the same somehow sounding duller through the FiiO, whereby after realizing I finally had access to a cable with which I could use a multimeter to do a more precise volume match, that difference eventually disappeared and at one point even reversed with the FiiO shortly sounding like the RME did when I thought it was more detailed and the RME sounding like the FiiO did when I thought it was less detailed. I have likewise experienced when A/Bing my newly acquired HE1000se with my Arya Stealth cases of hearing increased clarity or bigness when switching from one to the other, only to hear the same "change" upon switching back. Human hearing can be quite fickle.

@all Should we have a sticky requiring newcomers to read through prerequisite material before posting in this thread?

"Human hearing can be quite fickle." Absolutely. Again, I ask the question of can a highly rated, by all tests possible, piece of stereo equipment sound bad?

 

[Mr. Haelscheir]

"Human hearing can be quite fickle." Absolutely. Again, I ask the question of can a highly rated, by all tests possible, piece of stereo equipment sound bad?

From what I know, yes, only if sufficiently influenced by sighted bias (or worst case, their head being positioned at just the right spot of a listening room afflicted by comb filtering), or if their preference happens to be a very audibly measurably coloured (frequency response differences) or distorting piece of gear.

 

[olieb]

"Human hearing can be quite fickle." Absolutely. Again, I ask the question of can a highly rated, by all tests possible, piece of stereo equipment sound bad?

of course it can. I see two options:
1. It is built like an Audi Diesel car. It sniffs being measured and then performs flawless. But in the wild again, it blows out all kinds of distortion.
2. It is a piece of magic gear, like a unicorn on a rainbow. If you have such a piece, you should keep hold of it, it might fulfill you three wishes.

PS: I do not believe in magic.

 

[Jimbob54]

ESS, AKM, TI would sound the same if they measure as transparent?

Assuming the right measurements, yes.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Does everybody here listen to test signals all day? I listen to the music. Is it possible that a piece of equipment tests extremely high in all aspects but doesn't sound good?

No, but it's very possible that a piece of equipment tests extremely high in all aspects and ...

1) ... doesn't perform according to your taste. Some people appreciate accuracy, and some don't.
2) ... in the case of speakers, isn't installed correctly in the room. Rooms have a tremendous effect on the sound of speakers.
3) ... are affected by other elements in the electronic chain, such as circuits prior to the device you mention and which are very noisy, mis-matched, or simply bad designs.

And BTW ... if you believe that "everybody here listens to test signals all day", check out the "What are you listening to right now" thread here. It's 1,068 pages long, contains 21, 346 posts and is going strong every day.

Stereotypes come in all flavors.

Jim

 

[Jim Taylor]

How can we ensure that the measurements are right?

There are more, but these were handy at the moment.

Jim

 

[antcollinet]

"Human hearing can be quite fickle." Absolutely. Again, I ask the question of can a highly rated, by all tests possible, piece of stereo equipment sound bad?

you've already had two people answer that for you.

 

[Miguelón]

Obviously Miguelon is either trolling or arguing in bad faith. He'll tell you science is never more than a probable theory and refuse anything that isn't 100% certain.

You’ve discovered me, I’m an infiltrated member of “What’s Hi-Fi” in order to introduce chaos on science forums (sarcasm)

Only try to understand some audio differences I perceive in my gear apart from the psychological effect which I know well as is omnipresent in my profession (medicine rehabilitation).

As I mentioned above, I don’t believe in certainty about anything and found a possible way to measure my dacs discrepancy.

Actually I have not a lot of time, but since I have the two dacs and an audio interface, I will search for my own forms of verify s whole track difference when DA converted after passing both devices.

The only difficulty I find on the later method is the asynchrony of two different clocks, otherwise the subtraction of the generated files will be a new signal almost equal to each file but reflecting the different volume.

If I finally find the time and a friend who can do the analysis, I will share results.

No trolling, I trust more my ears than all of your arguments, you can call me irrational but that’s all.

 

[allmanfan]

Dac's sound different..some have larger soundstages, some have more more bass,some are more detailed some are softer sounder...some image better etc...how bout people listen to the DAC;s rather than simply looking at measurements?...it is actually a strange discussion...I think everyone acknowledges that DAC's today sound beter than DAC's when they were first introduced so obviously DAC's sound different and DAC chips continue to evolve and obviously sound differently...also the very same chip put into a different DAC compenent will be better or worse depending on the architecture of the DAC, the implementation...the filters involved ,the components etc etc

 

[danadam]

Actually I have not a lot of time, but since I have the two dacs and an audio interface, I will search for my own forms of verify s whole track difference when DA converted after passing both devices.

The only difficulty I find on the later method is the asynchrony of two different clocks, otherwise the subtraction of the generated files will be a new signal almost equal to each file but reflecting the different volume.

Do you mean you don't trust DeltaWave?

 

[Jim Taylor]

Dac's sound different..some have larger soundstages, some have more more bass,some are more detailed some are softer sounder...some image better etc...how bout people listen to the DAC;s rather than simply looking at measurements?...

How about people who assert what is counter to known science try to take a double-blind test to show themselves what is true and what isn't?

Jim

 

[BDWoody]

On the thread nobody quoted a single concrete study answering the question posted. Many members talk about “30 years of experience” but not supported by any publications.
Can you give me at least one or even more links to those studies?

It's more of a 'body of knowledge' thing, than a place to point to for proof.

If I said I can jump 20' in the air, then ask you to prove I can't how do you respond? Before you go and do too much work, I'm guessing you'd want verification that I can in actual fact demonstrate this. Despite you likely not being able to technically *prove* that I can't, does that mean you might believe me? If I insist, over and over that I can, I'm thinking at some point you will want to actually see me do it or just move along.

We are asking the same of those who claim to hear special things that the body of knowledge tells us is highly unlikely.

Evidence cuts through all the nonsense.

Conversely, some patients show an audition threshold of -15 dB, others came from +60 dB or more. Prior to measure some subtle differences on some acoustic phenomenon perhaps you should select different types of population to determine weather the phenomenon exist or not”

Just find one who can show he hears something that the basic understanding would suggest he can't. With all those out there who claim to hear all kinds of things, how do you propose we focus on what might be more than just wishful thinking based on listening sessions with no understanding of controlling for bias.

What is so difficult for most here, is watching the contortions people go through to avoid doing a real level matched blind test.

Maybe try one?

 

[allmanfan]

How about people who assert what is counter to known science try to take a double-blind test to show themselves what is true and what isn't?

Jim

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

 

[oleg87]

Dac's sound different..some have larger soundstages, some have more more bass,some are more detailed some are softer sounder...some image better etc...

How do they do this?

 

[Miguelón]

It's more of a 'body of knowledge' thing, than a place to point to for proof.

If I said I can jump 20' in the air, then ask you to prove I can't how do you respond? Before you go and do too much work, I'm guessing you'd want verification that I can in actual fact demonstrate this. Despite you likely not being able to technically *prove* that I can't, does that mean you might believe me? If I insist, over and over that I can, I'm thinking at some point you will want to actually see me do it.

We are asking the same of those who claim to hear special things that the body of knowledge tells us is highly unlikely.

Evidence cuts through all the nonsense.




Just find one who can show he hears something that the basic understanding would suggest he can't. With all those out there who claim to hear all kinds of things, how do you propose we focus on what might be more than just wishful thinking based on listening sessions with no understanding of controlling for bias.

What is so difficult for most here, is watching the contortions people go through to avoid doing a real level matched blind test.

Maybe try one?

Are there any online?
How can level match my dacs?

Or will be valid to tell my girlfriend to change randomly volumes to cancel its influence?

 

[BDWoody]

Are there any online?
How can level match my dacs?

Or will be valid to tell my girlfriend to change randomly volumes to cancel its influence?

Do you have a multimeter?

Measure and match voltage output of the DACs at a chosen frequency.

I used a good preamp to do the switching, matched the DAC voltages and synchronized them using Roon endpoints, mixed up the cables and plugged them in, then hit the button to switch inputs enough times that I had no idea which was which.

I could then switch back and forth with them at the same level, and without knowing which was playing. This would NOT be good enough to convince many others, but it was enough to convince me so I didn't bother enlisting others to help.

All the obvious differences disappeared, and I sent back the very expensive (to me) DAC and bought a theater full of nine JBL professional monitors (708Ps and 705Ps) for the same price, and have been laughing ever since.