Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[PenguinMusic]

So you do a level matched controlled test? That's the only way you can be trusting your ears...if you are doing standard uncontrolled listening comparisons, what your brain is 'hearing' involves a lot more than just your ears.

Without any effort to control for the non ear part of it, you are trusting your unique combination of biases to fill in all the blanks properly, which is problematic at best, and completely misleading at worst.

Why not just do an actual controlled test? Then you can find out what JUST your ears have to say...so to speak...

Hi,

Thanks for your reply...

I do as I can.
I think it has been written many times here (and not by me), even by level matched control test that performing that test is not trivial.
And it probably often happens where you live that you can walk into a shop and ask them if they have all equipment to perform that test or not and if they don't, if you can come in with your own equipment and spend 3 hours setting it up and perform your measures, but here in Europe/France I am not aware of shops offering that ability...
And as I do not have the gear to perform the test, I repeat, I do as I can.

You want to know what my ultimate test is ?

When I want to step into an audio shop, I try not to sleep the night before.
Then they install the gear and I ask them to leave me with the remote controls.
Then I play music pretty loud...

If I can fell asleep despite the music playing loud, it is good and the device fits my likings.
If after 3 minutes I am irritated and am looking for the remote control to turn it off, then that device surely doesn't fit my likings.
Why ? Because for me, music must not be irritating but must be relaxing.
Of course, that is another subjective part : I claim it.

Highly scientific*. Much more than level matched test... At least, doing that, I've never been disappointed with devices I've bought

As I said : at the end of the day, I listen to music, not to a data sheet...

I already know what comes next : "Then you have nothing to do on a site like ASR". Because I want to enjoy music ?
What I come here for is simple : trying to get an explanation about why I like some devices better than others... Is that wrong too ?

Regards.



* That is ironical. Just to clarify as I cannot put any intonation into a written comment.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Assuming the device would measure very poorly (enough to be audibly different = colored):

What you're risking by choosing it, based on only few subjective listening tests (mostly with a selection of your favourite tracks)... is to discover over time that you don't like it that much depending of which music you play with...
I strongly think some "colored" devices can't last long in a system, since it seems to work well with some songs and then terrible with others. That's why I always believe in advocacy for transparency when it comes to electronics/analogue parts of the chain. Finding transparent speakers/room/headphones is much more difficult to accomplish.

Hi,

That is really correct... I second that motion !

Of course, we are talking here about ANALOG devices or at least device that have a lot of analog processing included : speakers, amps, pre-amps or even source players (CD, streamers...) that have analog outputs.

So, when I have to choose the device, I perform tests and the store has to offer me to take the device for 2/3 days at hyome to listen to it in my own environment.
And when I have it, I listen to all kind of music (I listen to a lot of different things, except maybe "techno", but the range goes from "Romantic classical" to Heavy Metal going through Jazz... and lounge).
And the questions I always ask my self are following : Does it just sound different or does it sound like I would like ? and Would I be able to listen to this device for hours ?

Regards.

 

[solderdude]

What I come here for is simple : trying to get an explanation about why I like some devices better than others... Is that wrong too ?

We tried to explain this.
The ultimate deciding factor is the brain and not the electronics.
The perceived differences originate in your brain rather than the electronics.
That is why there is no correlation to measurements and yours, or others, sighted findings.

You CAN use your ears fairly reliably. For this to happen you need to remove the brain effects (bias) as much as possible.
You choose not to do this so your findings are not related to electronics but rather your brain.

When you want to buy something you like, use whatever method you like and when you publicly post 'this or that sounds better' use the following disclaimer on ASR: 'to me under sighted conditions' directly behind it.
With that disclaimer you can say just about anything here and not get in any 'trouble'.

The point is that when someone claims this or that sounds 'better' without that disclaimer we know it is a personal opinion and not a fact.
You can get anything from 'uh-huh' to lengthy discussions about testing methods and evidence.


The best person to form your opinion is YOU. That's the only thing that counts for your result.

The best way to objectively compare things like electronics and cables is not the way you go about this despite you feeling it works 'best' for you.

 

[Wombat]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply...

I do as I can.
I think it has been written many times here (and not by me), even by level matched control test that performing that test is not trivial.
And it probably often happens where you live that you can walk into a shop and ask them if they have all equipment to perform that test or not and if they don't, if you can come in with your own equipment and spend 3 hours setting it up and perform your measures, but here in Europe/France I am not aware of shops offering that ability...
And as I do not have the gear to perform the test, I repeat, I do as I can.

You want to know what my ultimate test is ?

When I want to step into an audio shop, I try not to sleep the night before.
Then they install the gear and I ask them to leave me with the remote controls.
Then I play music pretty loud...

If I can fell asleep despite the music playing loud, it is good and the device fits my likings.
If after 3 minutes I am irritated and am looking for the remote control to turn it off, then that device surely doesn't fit my likings.
Why ? Because for me, music must not be irritating but must be relaxing.
Of course, that is another subjective part : I claim it.

Highly scientific*. Much more than level matched test... At least, doing that, I've never been disappointed with devices I've bought

As I said : at the end of the day, I listen to music, not to a data sheet...

I already know what comes next : "Then you have nothing to do on a site like ASR". Because I want to enjoy music ?
What I come here for is simple : trying to get an explanation about why I like some devices better than others... Is that wrong too ?

Regards.



* That is ironical. Just to clarify as I cannot put any intonation into a written comment.

Your last sentence. Why do you think that is so simple? Because you don't know enough to know otherwise? You expect a complex subject to be condensed into a simple explanation that meets your level of understanding(not established)? Mmmm.

It is not an uncommon expectation in ASR posts. It is also somewhat unfair and unrealistic.

Even 'cheat sheets' require a level of basic understanding.

 

[Jimbob54]

Your last sentence. Why do you think that is so simple? Because you don't know enough to know otherwise? You expect a complex subject to be condensed into a simple explanation that meets your level of understanding(not established)? Mmmm.

It is not an uncommon expectation in ASR posts. It is also somewhat unfair and unrealistic.

Even 'cheat sheets' require a level of basic understanding.

Ive been here less than a year, but am I right in thinking this is an increasing trend?

 

[Wombat]

Ive been here less than a year, but am I right in thinking this is an increasing trend?

Yes. And not helpful on a science based forum.

If you can't put a lifetime of study and experience into a few lines of untechnical speech, one is considered to be a useless 'expert', to some.
I don't tolerate it if I think the poster should know better. When I get called grumpy or other put-downs I know I have hit a nerve.

 

[Julf]

Ive been here less than a year, but am I right in thinking this is an increasing trend?

Seems to be, yes. I guess we have had our AOL moment - the unwashed hordes have discovered the forum.

 

[mansr]

Seems to be, yes. I guess we have had our AOL moment - the unwashed hordes have discovered the forum.

And it's not even September yet.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Seems to be, yes. I guess we have had our AOL moment - the unwashed hordes have discovered the forum.

Of course, this was going to happen one day or another. Some of the most popular reviews here have been bad buzz for hyped audiophile products (not all, hopefully). That brought many people on and on, not able to understand what's going on here: "...Hum, OK, but how does it sound?..."

If only one of them learnt something by coming here, I say it worth it.

 

[Jimbob54]

Seems to be, yes. I guess we have had our AOL moment - the unwashed hordes have discovered the forum.

I shower before each visit. Sometimes I feel like I need one after too.

 

[Jimbob54]

And it's not even September yet.

What happens in September?

 

[Jimbob54]

What happens in September?

Students getting cash happy with loans?

 

[mansr]

What happens in September?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

 

[Wombat]

Number of members is a usual forum measurement of success it seems.

 

[Jimbob54]

Students getting cash happy with loans?

@mansr knew it must have something to do with students

 

[PenguinMusic]

Hi,

Sorry...

Regards.

 

[Jimbob54]

Number of members is a measurement of success it seems.

Measurements never lie. They just dont tell the full story. You need bad speakers to do that .

 

[Wombat]

Hi,

Sorry...

Regards.

Have you thought that you could tell us why you like some devices better than others? We are not mindreaders.

Then some feedback may be possible.

 

[Jimbob54]

Have you thought that you could tell us why you like some devices better than others? We are not mindreaders.

Then some feedback may be possible.

If it sends them to sleep.

 

[PenguinMusic]

Have you thought that you could tell us why you like some devices better than others? We are not mindreaders.

Then some feedback may be possible.

Hi,

What's the need ?

Can you measure love ? Or just express what you're feeling ?

Same goes for me with music : I listen to music and enjoy it and I am happy.
I am awfully sorry to report that a perfect response curve doesn't give me goose bump, when a really nice interpretation of, say Mahler's 4th symphony can do that...

As soon as I try to explain that (and I already did in these forums) : all I got is mockery from truthknowers that claim I can only be wrong because the device I like more than another has poorer measures.

Me, I am just searching for an explanation as to why this gives me a goosebump... and I think I never triedto force my views upon any member of this forum.