Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[krabapple]

Do you think that the measurements that are currently being carried out are 'sufficient', well interpreted in the context of our current knowledge, but above all, are we not forgetting 'something' that could fall within the scope of the measurements to be carried out but that has escaped us in our good understanding of the capabilities of a device to reproduce 'sound' with the best possible fidelity ?

At last, a question on ASR that has never been asked before!

Oh, wait.

 

[krabapple]

I don't understand what you're trying to convey here.

Extreme confusion?

 

[solderdude]

Because of my model sailplane hobby, I have a ton of 12V LiPo packs around here, some capable of delivering alot more current than the Brooklyn DAC+ will ever need. These packs are just the LiPo cells wired in series with no other circuitry. The DAC+ has ma 12V DC input, so I thought I'd give it a try. Connectors were those Deans Ultra Plugs that we use for the airplanes, and which can handle 60 amps continuous, though we have run much more than that through them in bursts. Obviously, the little barrel connector can't get anywhere near that. I only mention it to emphasize that there was no current bottleneck from the power source.

The result of powering the DAC+ this way is easily audible on my Neumann KH80 and KH120 monitors in the near field. Honestly, it sounded nothing like the DAC+ ON AC POWER. I always felt that the DAC+ sounded a bit hard in the upper mids, and maybe a bit grainy in the high frequencies something which the battery power supply really cleaned up. The vocals were smoother and maybe a little bit more recessed, allowing me to raise the overall volume a little. Backgrounds were audibly darker, better clarity all around, smoother, with a sense of ease. These impressions are hard to describe, but overall, I felt that that the DAC+ was easier and more relaxing to listen to under battery power.

Under 12V battery power, I felt that the DAC+ got closer to the sound of the RME ADI-series DACs, of which I have a few around here. But the closest comparison might be to the Sonosax M2D2, which is a fantastic little ADDA that we use all the time for field recording of music and sound for picture. The experience leaves me wondering if the sBooster powering the DAC+ would bring the same result. The battery option does indeed sound fantastic, but it's a hassle to always keep the battery topped off. And I'm also not to keen about using LiPos to power stuff in the house. A LiFe pack would be safer for this purpose.

Do you think your SX-M2D2 would be able to record from the Mytek output ?

It would be great if you could supply 'us' with a recording of music from the Mytek running on batteries and on mains so we can hear the very audible differences.
Also include the music you used for the recording.

How silly of Mytek to use such a poor 'sound quality' internal mains supply for their DAC. Most people would never know what it is capable of when running on external power... ermm .. batteries.

 

[sonitus mirus]

Because of my model sailplane hobby, I have a ton of 12V LiPo packs around here, some capable of delivering alot more current than the Brooklyn DAC+ will ever need. These packs are just the LiPo cells wired in series with no other circuitry. The DAC+ has ma 12V DC input, so I thought I'd give it a try. Connectors were those Deans Ultra Plugs that we use for the airplanes, and which can handle 60 amps continuous, though we have run much more than that through them in bursts. Obviously, the little barrel connector can't get anywhere near that. I only mention it to emphasize that there was no current bottleneck from the power source.

The result of powering the DAC+ this way is easily audible on my Neumann KH80 and KH120 monitors in the near field. Honestly, it sounded nothing like the DAC+ ON AC POWER. I always felt that the DAC+ sounded a bit hard in the upper mids, and maybe a bit grainy in the high frequencies something which the battery power supply really cleaned up. The vocals were smoother and maybe a little bit more recessed, allowing me to raise the overall volume a little. Backgrounds were audibly darker, better clarity all around, smoother, with a sense of ease. These impressions are hard to describe, but overall, I felt that that the DAC+ was easier and more relaxing to listen to under battery power.

Under 12V battery power, I felt that the DAC+ got closer to the sound of the RME ADI-series DACs, of which I have a few around here. But the closest comparison might be to the Sonosax M2D2, which is a fantastic little ADDA that we use all the time for field recording of music and sound for picture. The experience leaves me wondering if the sBooster powering the DAC+ would bring the same result. The battery option does indeed sound fantastic, but it's a hassle to always keep the battery topped off. And I'm also not to keen about using LiPos to power stuff in the house. A LiFe pack would be safer for this purpose.

Battery power is usually cleaner because it avoids a lot of the electrical noise and ground loop issues you get from mains power. I'm pretty sure that if you measured it, you might see lower noise or distortion levels, or at least there is a good chance that it might, though the difference is so subtle that it could easily be all in your head.

 

[autoformer]

Battery power is usually cleaner because it avoids a lot of the electrical noise and ground loop issues you get from mains power. I'm pretty sure that if you measured it, you might see lower noise or distortion levels, or at least there is a good chance that it might, though the difference is so subtle that it could easily be all in your head.

Ran into some old literature from the manufacturer. I think this was referring to the original Brooklyn DAC.
"Mytek Brooklyn DAC is equippped with external 12VDC power supply input. There is some sound quality improvement (particualrly deeper base and better soundstage) when a large external power supply is used. To have an effect the power supply has to be substantailly (5-10 times) larger than the 30W internal power supply."

In the owner's manual for the DAC+:
"11. Optional external DC / Battery Power input; 12VDC. Connecting a large external battery or large power supply may have positive impact on sound quality."

I'll chase this down in a few weeks and see if I can reproduce the results and hear the difference in a blind test. Would sure be nice to have a second DAC+ for this.

 

[autoformer]

Do you think your SX-M2D2 would be able to record from the Mytek output ?

It would be great if you could supply 'us' with a recording of music from the Mytek running on batteries and on mains so we can hear the very audible differences.
Also include the music you used for the recording.

How silly of Mytek to use such a poor 'sound quality' internal mains supply for their DAC. Most people would never know what it is capable of when running on external power... ermm .. batteries.

Yes, of course. But it would be even easier to just use a good quality recorder like a Nagra 6 or Seven.

 

[Beave]

Ran into some old literature from the manufacturer. I think this was referring to the original Brooklyn DAC.
"Mytek Brooklyn DAC is equippped with external 12VDC power supply input. There is some sound quality improvement (particualrly deeper base and better soundstage) when a large external power supply is used. To have an effect the power supply has to be substantailly (5-10 times) larger than the 30W internal power supply."

In the owner's manual for the DAC+:
"11. Optional external DC / Battery Power input; 12VDC. Connecting a large external battery or large power supply may have positive impact on sound quality."

I'll chase this down in a few weeks and see if I can reproduce the results and hear the difference in a blind test. Would sure be nice to have a second DAC+ for this.

Did they really use the word base instead of bass?

By the way, first lesson to learn from this website is not to trust marketing bs from manufacturers.

 

[solderdude]

Yes, of course. But it would be even easier to just use a good quality recorder like a Nagra 6 or Seven.

That would be even better.
Anxiously awaiting recordings that verify the difference in sound quality.

 

[autoformer]

Did they really use the word base instead of bass?

By the way, first lesson to learn from this website is not to trust marketing bs from manufacturers.

Yes, but I think English is a second language for some at Mytek. They manufacture in Poland, after all. No telling who wrote that.

 

[Beave]

Yes, but I think English is a second language for some at Mytek. They manufacture in Poland, after all. No telling who wrote that.

Thanks. I see that their lead person (designer? owner? both?) resides in New York City (hence the names of several of their products) but is from Poland.

 

[TLEDDY]

Early on, this was posted:

‘the fun part of Paul's software is that you can null an original music file to the reproduced file and even listen to the null.“

It seems that the ‘null’ test would answer the question… my own opinion (untested by me) is that chips from different makers might produce a difference.

Comments, please…

Tillman

 

[TLEDDY]

I don't understand what you're trying to convey here.

Very difficult to scramble the chicken…

 

[DanielT]

I see this thread popping up every now and then. I don't follow it actively, so if someone who does would be kind enough to give a brief summary of what has emerged so far after 542 pages and 10832 posts, I would be grateful.

You don't seem to agree on the question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Otherwise why these enormously many posts?

 

[JustJones]

I see this thread popping up every now and then. I don't follow it actively, so if someone who does would be kind enough to give a brief summary of what has emerged so far after 542 pages and 10832 posts, I would be grateful.

You don't seem to agree on the question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Otherwise why these enormously many posts?

A lot of this thread is other threads started by people claiming DACs that measure audibly transparent sounding differently without any proof so they get moved here. I look upon this thread as a "dumping ground". My impression it's an attempt to keep the site tidied up a bit.

 

[Mart68]

I see this thread popping up every now and then. I don't follow it actively, so if someone who does would be kind enough to give a brief summary of what has emerged so far after 542 pages and 10832 posts, I would be grateful.

You don't seem to agree on the question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Otherwise why these enormously many posts?

It's a dumping ground for people asking the same question on other threads, so it's the same thing repeated over and over.

Essentially -

Q - 'I and lots of other people hear differences in DACs so how can that be if they don't have a sound signature?

A - you didn't compare with any controls (blind, level matched). Try doing that and see if you then think differently about it.

So far and from memory I don't think a single person who has asked that question has actually gone and done the listening test. Usually they just keep repeating the same thing until they get banned or barred from the thread.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Early on, this was posted:

‘the fun part of Paul's software is that you can null an original music file to the reproduced file and even listen to the null.“

It seems that the ‘null’ test would answer the question… my own opinion (untested by me) is that chips from different makers might produce a difference.

Comments, please…

Tillman

Mostly the answer is no. Any of the fairly good dac chips are transparent even against one another. When you find differences is from different filters. Sharp cut off vs very slow cut off filters. When all use sharp cut off filtering it's all peas in a pod.

 

[rascal101]

For same D/A IC used, it is possible that the resulting sound from DAC --> pre-The output stage of the D/A IC

Ran into some old literature from the manufacturer. I think this was referring to the original Brooklyn DAC.
"Mytek Brooklyn DAC is equippped with external 12VDC power supply input. There is some sound quality improvement (particualrly deeper base and better soundstage) when a large external power supply is used. To have an effect the power supply has to be substantailly (5-10 times) larger than the 30W internal power supply."

In the owner's manual for the DAC+:
"11. Optional external DC / Battery Power input; 12VDC. Connecting a large external battery or large power supply may have positive impact on sound quality."

I'll chase this down in a few weeks and see if I can reproduce the results and hear the difference in a blind test. Would sure be nice to have a second DAC+ for this.

If the fairly large battery has stable DC output and very little output ripple as expected that would directly benefit the D/A IC as the effects of Line Regulation is minimized. Also good if you can keep a constant ambient temperature.

 

[TLEDDY]

Mostly the answer is no. Any of the fairly good dac chips are transparent even against one another. When you find differences is from different filters. Sharp cut off vs very slow cut off filters. When all use sharp cut off filtering it's all peas in a pod.

Excellent!! Thank you!!

I get weary of seeing $Gadzillion DACs making claims and having reviews in various print and online rags supporting the claims. The last one recently approached $100K

 

[DanielT]

A lot of this thread is other threads started by people claiming DACs that measure audibly transparent sounding differently without any proof so they get moved here. I look upon this thread as a "dumping ground". My impression it's an attempt to keep the site tidied up a bit.

It's a dumping ground for people asking the same question on other threads, so it's the same thing repeated over and over.

Essentially -

Q - 'I and lots of other people hear differences in DACs so how can that be if they don't have a sound signature?

A - you didn't compare with any controls (blind, level matched). Try doing that and see if you then think differently about it.

So far and from memory I don't think a single person who has asked that question has actually gone and done the listening test. Usually they just keep repeating the same thing until they get banned or barred from the thread.

Roughly what I remember when I read this thread a few months ago, that is, it is explained then a new member appears with the same question or statement that has already been discussed and so it starts over, so....

 

[Newman]

No, the difference is quite apparent. It would be an interesting review for Amir. I'd provide the DAC+ and the 12V LiPo packs. I live in the Redmond area.

Rough probability estimates:-

1. 8/10 that it is confirmation bias on your part and nothing audibly different in the sound waves
2. 1/10 that one or the other power source isn't delivering to normal expectations for that power source
3. 1/10 that you are not providing the same voltage rail voltage in both cases, by some accident
4. 0/10 (going by ALL the available data from controlled listening tests on this topic) that well-implemented mains power is inherently not as pure sounding as battery power.