How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[VientoB]

How did advocating energetically for our view on this site turn into being the audio police. This is the part I'm still not understanding. We are no more policing these people's decisions than the Amish.

Some people have yet to comprehend reality of the measurements.

 

[ahofer]

Some people have yet to comprehend reality of the measurements.

It isn't even about whether our view is correct. The only plausible place we are doing anything remotely resembling 'policing' is here on ASR, and even then, they are free to join and espouse their views (politely), for the most part. Our effect on other places is purely their own reaction to our existence.

As the saying goes, you can't control others, you can only control your own response.

 

[Jim Taylor]

How did advocating energetically for our view on this site turn into being the audio police. This is the part I'm still not understanding. We are no more policing these people's decisions than the Amish.

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

It might work better on weak minds, but not just on weak minds. People once they've gotten into certain mind sets and beliefs naturally are armored against changing. They think those beliefs make sense or they wouldn't believe them. Even people with plenty of intelligence and strong minds are prone to this if they end up going in this direction in an area where they aren't experts and other people seeming to be experts with a long history of experience are reinforcing those beliefs. That is what I've witnessed with people I know about whom I know how intelligent and strong minded they are.

That is also why what some call policing is justified. When someone starts to interact with a area new to them the initial ideas and direction they go with those ideas sets their path. Getting the word out that lots of subjective knowledge is problematic can get people started in the better direction. And yes it is better if it is in accordance with physical reality vs something opposed to it. Is the fantasy path more fun? For some maybe, but that alone is weak justification for promoting those mistaken ideas. The path in accordance with physical reality can be fun too just different.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

This tactic is as transparent as most DACs.

 

[Mnyb]

But you don’t need to join here and argue in the first place ? It’s quite obvious what this site is and what it isn’t ?

It’s like Sealioning an Astronomical forum and use Astrology arguments ? Why are people apparently signing up for this reason several times every week ?

It’s like deliberately putting your hand in the fire and complaining that it hurts ?

 

[Jim Taylor]

It’s like deliberately putting your hand in the fire and complaining that it hurts ?

Yup!

Jim

 

[MaxBuck]

Yup!

View attachment 396962

Jim

Going beyond the realm of audio science and technology for a moment, staying away from such people is increasingly difficult.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Going beyond the realm of audio science and technology for a moment, staying away from such people is increasingly difficult.

True. To borrow a quote; "These are trying times."

Jim

 

[krabapple]

It's a "pop psychology" tactic. First, brook no disagreements. Second, any and all alternate viewpoints are to be cast in the light of brutish behavior and totalitarian force. Third, don the mantle of the victim. Through the use of self-righteous indignation, this legitimizes any and all accusations that may be leveled, no matter how ridiculous.

It seems to work most effectively on weak minds.

Jim

and always be sure to call the stance you disagree with a 'religion' and its holders a 'cult', no matter how well-grounded the stance is with evidence.

(and yes, I have seen this rhetorical tactic used against working scientists -- they are all 'scientism' cultists, didn't you know?)

 

[Waxx]

If you want some flame war, there is one (actually several) going on on diyaudio.com about this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...d-different-if-they-both-measure-well.418579/

Of course I'm in the camp of option 4: a good measuring dac should have no sound at all, certainly with today's tech of cheap dacs that go way below our hearing limits on noise and distortion... But the battle against snake oil is also going on there. I don't think that is a discussion down here, but i wanted to point out the discussion there.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you want some flame war, there is one (actually several) going on on diyaudio.com about this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...d-different-if-they-both-measure-well.418579/

Of course I'm in the camp of option 4: a good measuring dac should have no sound at all, certainly with today's tech of cheap dacs that go way below our hearing limits on noise and distortion... But the battle against snake oil is also going on there. I don't think that is a discussion down here, but i wanted to point out the discussion there.

You see all the same things. Inadequate cross talk to image properly, jitter is a problem, inter-channel time resolution, blah, blah, blah. At least there are a near equal measure of posters who have a reasonable view of the matter.

Of course on any DIY forum you have the heavy bias of once you modify something yourself you obviously expect a difference or you wouldn't have thought it worth doing. So pretty hard to not hear one unless you are careful with controlled listening.

 

[SIY]

But the battle against snake oil is also going on there.

That battle was lost there years ago. When one of the most dishonest people I know is touted as "an expert in sensory testing" and there's no pushback, when midwits like "Markw4" or whatever are taken seriously rather than mocked mercilessly... what you have is a swamp.

 

[Vicent]

Hi @Vicent! Welcome to ASR.


Any sort of sound profile would show up as a deviation from flat in Krause's Headphone out frequency response graph:
View attachment 399401

That there is no deviation, means that the E2x2 is a neutral audio source.

It'll play your music/audio as-is, without imparting any kind of profile or coloration or sound onto it.

Thank you very much for answering and for the welcome.

My knowledge of audio technicalities is limited but I don't know if it's enough to see a response curve to know how a DAC, preamplifier or any audio device sounds.
I was referring to the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, the sound stage...
In other words, the eternal problem that arises when you have to choose a "music" audio device when you can't listen to it before buying and that although the Topping E2x2 is an input device it also contains that information and can be compared with others of the same class to be able to choose and that's why I asked here in case someone who owns it could describe to me how they hear it even though we all know the subjectivity of each person's listening.

And also about the noise Julian Krause talks about when operating the knobs, a defect that seems to me to be quite serious and that nobody talks about.
Of course it could be a defect of that unit, but given Topping's history of complications, I think it is advisable to talk about it.

 

[staticV3]

I was referring to the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, the sound stage...

Simply put, the E2x2 will play your music with all the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, and the sound stage that is present in the recording.

It will not add warmth, nor will it take warmth away.
It won't expand the stereo stage, nor will it be compressed.

It will simply reproduce the sound that was created by the artist and refined in the mastering studio.
Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Luchof26]

Hello.
I'm new to the forum and I apologize for the automatic translation.

I'd be interested in knowing something about the noise of the knobs when operating them as mentioned in a review by Julian Krause.
And also how the headphone output sounds in terms of high fidelity and compared to amplifiers such as the ifi audio.

I'm surprised that this isn't discussed here since it's the only fault that Julian Krause has with this interface and nothing is said about its sound profile on headphones.
Or maybe I just haven't read it...

The Topping E2X2 is very good for monitoring audio in a recording enviroment. I had no issues with pots scratching while adjusting. I'm really happy with the Topping E2X2. It does performe in all its different capacities well above its price range. If you are not going to record audio maybe its better to get one of their DAC's or combo products. I have a E50/L50 combo that performs in my opinion better than the E2X2 but at a significant cost increase. Indeed they are both transparent but the transient response and stereo image presented is slightly different IMHO.

 

[staticV3]

The Topping E2X2 is very good for monitoring audio in a recording enviroment. I had no issues with pots scratching while adjusting. I'm really happy with the Topping E2X2. It does performe in all its different capacities well above its price range. If you are not going to record audio maybe its better to get one of their DAC's or combo products. I have a E50/L50 combo that performs in my opinion better than the E2X2 but at a significant cost increase. Indeed they are both transparent but the transient response and stereo image presented is slightly different IMHO.

Have you tried matching the levels with a multimeter?

Without that step, comparing their sound is meaningless.

 

[Vicent]

The Topping E2X2 is very good for monitoring audio in a recording enviroment. I had no issues with pots scratching while adjusting. I'm really happy with the Topping E2X2. It does performe in all its different capacities well above its price range. If you are not going to record audio maybe its better to get one of their DAC's or combo products. I have a E50/L50 combo that performs in my opinion better than the E2X2 but at a significant cost increase. Indeed they are both transparent but the transient response and stereo image presented is slightly different IMHO.

Thank you very much, this is what I was referring to.
I don't record real instruments yet, just VST, but I can't rule out that I will do so in the future. Therefore, I am trying to find an interface that will perform well within these prices without having to sacrifice the need for recording inputs in the future.
Hi-fi DACs for headphones will probably color the audio.
Thank you very much for the information about your perception of the sound and about the noise of the knobs.
What devices, model and brand are you referring to with E50/L50?

 

[Vicent]

Simply put, the E2x2 will play your music with all the color, the warmth, the clarity, the smoothness of the highs, the cleanliness of the bass, the roundness of the midrange and voices, and the sound stage that is present in the recording.

It will not add warmth, nor will it take warmth away.
It won't expand the stereo stage, nor will it be compressed.

It will simply reproduce the sound that was created by the artist and refined in the mastering studio.
Nothing more, nothing less.

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?
If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.
Maybe you mean that the E2x2 topping has a high-end flat sound?

Another thing is that you are of the opinion that at the same volume everything sounds practically the same.

Excuse my skepticism.

 

[TimW]

So what's the point of looking for interfaces or preamps with better converter chips and better components in general to improve the audio provided by Smartphones and computers...for example?
If a simple look at a frequency curve was enough we would have much less problems choosing audio devices and all brands would manufacture in the same way.
Maybe you mean that the E2x2 topping has a high-end flat sound?

Another thing is that you are of the opinion that at the same volume everything sounds practically the same.

Excuse my skepticism.

That's the conclusion many here at ASR have come to, myself included. Buy audio electronics with the features you want, that fit in your budget, that measure well enough to be transparent, that you enjoy using, and which are hopefully reliable with good after sales support. I have never been able to hear the difference between two well measuring converters with properly matched volumes. On the other hand It's very easy to hear a difference when levels aren't properly matched and the listening is sighted.